Teacher's Salary Increase Possible

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by John Doe

2013 Median total incomes:
Alberta = $97390
New Brunswick = $67340
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il108a-eng.htm

What do you think those figures will look like for 2016? The prosperity of this province - private and public - has been underpinned by oil for a long time. Now there's far less money from that source. How to we adapt? And not for a year or two - how do we balance the provincial budget with a fraction of the royalty revenues we enjoyed in the past?

Frankly, I'd just like public sector employees in this province to recognize that their lifestyles are heavily subsidized by oil revenue, even if they don't work directly in the industry. I have a teacher friend who routinely demonizes the oil industry to her kids (and presumably, to her students as well). It's terrible for the environment, the companies are evil, etc. One of her tirades was accompanied by complaints about how little teachers make, and came only weeks before she jetted off with her kids to Hawaii for vacation. The hypocrisies compounded on hypocrisies left me speechless.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Iliketopuck, keep in mind your arguments show a far left wing view of the world, we don't all share that view. Its not about teachers buying houses.

When discussing salaries between different areas of the country, you need to examine what the cost of living is, of which housing is a major component. I don't know if what he is saying is a far left view of the world, it seems to be more center-left rather than anything else. Teachers should be fairly compensated to a degree where they are able to purchase an average house with their salary. In Alberta, thanks to the economy of the past decade, the housing market has been inflated resulting in high housing costs relative to other regions of the country with worse economies, ie New Brunswick.

From talking to teachers, they most all agree that they are fairly compensated. They have a demanding job with long hours, but not one of them complains about salary. The bigger problem is that there are a number of teachers working for longer periods of time at the high ends of the salary chart, preventing younger teachers from entering the field, they then spend more time on the substitute teacher list. There are a number of reasons for this, the big ones are how much longer people are living and the necessity of a larger retirement fund and the depletion of funds in 2013 economic collapse which took a large amount of people's savings.

A salary increase tied to the inflation rate isn't a bad thing, it is saying that people are fairly compensated for their role in society and should remain as such. It sure as hell isn't indicative of a far left ideology.

[ernie]

Now I'll be honest if teachers feel they are compensated fairly already then great.

But to me there isn't a profession that is more important to the community, city, country etc.. I have no issues with "overpaid" teachers. I really don't. I want this profession to attract the brightest and the best.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Slava

I have no issue with this list at all, but I'm most interested in #3. Its not that I think that there isn't a problem here, but I would like to know what teachers think could/should be done in that area. I hope that the answer isn't some generalized "more support from parents" kind of thing, because I really don't see that as an actual solution.

Gone are the days where a kid can actually have meaningful consequences for bad behavior or poor academic results.

Every single one is coddled. No kid is given a failing grade. All comments have to be provided in a "positive" light. Even though little Jimmy just got 3/30 on his math test.

Basically, there needs to be consequences to actions. Currently, there are virtually none.

Can parent's be more involved? Sure. But I think that is something a good parent does anyways, because they want their child to succeed. I wasn't kidding when I said that a great deal of the population views school as subsidized day care.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Frankly, I'd just like public sector employees in this province to recognize that their lifestyles are heavily subsidized by oil revenue, even if they don't work directly in the industry. I have a teacher friend who routinely demonizes the oil industry to her kids (and presumably, to her students as well). It's terrible for the environment, the companies are evil, etc. One of her tirades was accompanied by complaints about how little teachers make, and came only weeks before she jetted off with her kids to Hawaii for vacation. The hypocrisies compounded on hypocrisies left me speechless.

Of this I agree with completely, I have a number of co-workers who think that oil and gas companies don't pay taxes and that they just get handouts from the government. The worst part is that they never have any evidence of such and it is near impossible to find anything that would convince them otherwise. These are people who have no problem in accepting their salaries and the benefits to living in a province such as Alberta, which is funding off of O&G revenue.

I find that to be frustrating because it seem as while I believe in compensating the public sector, I also realize where the money does come from.

[automaton 3]

I know a bunch of teachers and administrators. None that I've talked to are are expecting a raise but I'm sure they'd take it if offered. The majority recognize that they received a sizable bump a few years back, and are well compensated compared to other provinces.

Classroom resources seem to be the issue. In particular lack of school supplies and teaching assistants (especially when they have special needs students in the classroom).

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Gone are the days where a kid can actually have meaningful consequences for bad behavior or poor academic results.

Every single one is coddled. No kid is given a failing grade. All comments have to be provided in a "positive" light. Even though little Jimmy just got 3/30 on his math test.

Basically, there needs to be consequences to actions. Currently, there are virtually none.

Can parent's be more involved? Sure. But I think that is something a good parent does anyways, because they want their child to succeed. I wasn't kidding when I said that a great deal of the population views school as subsidized day care.

It is hard to argue against that though. The answer to any question is no more then 3 clicks away.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by ernie

But to me there isn't a profession that is more important to the community, city, country etc.. I have no issues with "overpaid" teachers. I really don't. I want this profession to attract the brightest and the best.

Personally, I want strong and sustainable public health care and education far into the future. But I regard chronic deficit spending - often linked to high salaries and unsustainable pensions - to be the greatest threat to sustainable public health care and education.

With the inevitable slowing of the economy due to ageing, public finances are going to be under tremendous pressure going forward. We can either make some tough decision and manage a gentle decline, or we can be irresponsible and drive public finances - and public services - right off a cliff.

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Gone are the days where a kid can actually have meaningful consequences for bad behavior or poor academic results.

Every single one is coddled. No kid is given a failing grade. All comments have to be provided in a "positive" light. Even though little Jimmy just got 3/30 on his math test.

Basically, there needs to be consequences to actions. Currently, there are virtually none.

It's funny, but every parent I know agrees. They want to see letter grades and rankings. They want real consequences for bad behaviour. And they blame the absence of those things on the schools, and woolly-minded new models of education.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Gone are the days where a kid can actually have meaningful consequences for bad behavior or poor academic results.

Every single one is coddled. No kid is given a failing grade. All comments have to be provided in a "positive" light. Even though little Jimmy just got 3/30 on his math test.

Basically, there needs to be consequences to actions. Currently, there are virtually none.

Can parent's be more involved? Sure. But I think that is something a good parent does anyways, because they want their child to succeed. I wasn't kidding when I said that a great deal of the population views school as subsidized day care.

I guess I was hoping for a more concrete answer. Like I understand that there is an issue, I'm just not sure what to do about it. The funny thing about teachers in this area seems to be that they're not sure either.

Its really a shame, but when I see the things my kids deal with in their classrooms I think that the frustration goes both ways. The teachers are frustrated with the system as it stands, and the kids aren't a whole lot more excited to do the things that society would have them do. Like my kids both hate music. Not math, not science, not a "hard" class. Music. That is disheartening because they don't actually hate music itself, they hate the class because its boring. So here we have a subject which is to entertain people and its turned into boredom for the young students. I just think that is a real shame. I couldn't believe it when I heard this, but the kids are just being honest. We've got some serious issues with our education system when kids can't even enjoy music class in my opinion. And these are elementary kids, just as a point of reference.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

It is hard to argue against that though. The answer to any question is no more then 3 clicks away.

Information is far different than knowledge.

[malcolmk14]

Consequences for poor academic behaviour. I like that one.

If a teacher has a class of 30 students in Grade 6, 17 of whom are learning to speak English at varying stages (a couple of them can barely ask to go to the washroom), 4 of whom have learning disabilities and read at a Grade 2 or lower level, can barely write their name (seriously), 1 of whom has ADHD and can't sit still long enough to write a sentence, 4 of whom are pretty much done with school cause they've been told for years that they're below grade level and their parents give less of a #### than they do...

What are some real consequences for poor academic behaviour that you would suggest a teacher implement in that situation?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Consequences for poor academic behaviour. I like that one.

If a teacher has a class of 30 students in Grade 6, 17 of whom are learning to speak English at varying stages (a couple of them can barely ask to go to the washroom), 4 of whom have learning disabilities and read at a Grade 2 or lower level, can barely write their name (seriously), 1 of whom has ADHD and can't sit still long enough to write a sentence, 4 of whom are pretty much done with school cause they've been told for years that they're below grade level and their parents give less of a #### than they do...

What are some real consequences for poor academic behaviour that you would suggest a teacher implement in that situation?

Failure seems like the most logical. Why pass them along to the next level when we know they're not ready?

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Slava

Failure seems like the most logical. Why pass them along to the next level when we know they're not ready?

So in that scenario you'd have the kid with the moustache reading and writing at a Kindergarten level but interacting socially at a junior high school level in a Kindergarten class?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm actually curious. I have no idea what the silver bullet fix is.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Consequences for poor academic behaviour. I like that one.

If a teacher has a class of 30 students in Grade 6, 17 of whom are learning to speak English at varying stages (a couple of them can barely ask to go to the washroom), 4 of whom have learning disabilities and read at a Grade 2 or lower level, can barely write their name (seriously), 1 of whom has ADHD and can't sit still long enough to write a sentence, 4 of whom are pretty much done with school cause they've been told for years that they're below grade level and their parents give less of a #### than they do...

What are some real consequences for poor academic behaviour that you would suggest a teacher implement in that situation?

Are you my wife? How did you find out about CP....this is my domain!

(what's for dinner, need me to go to the store?)

Joking of course, but to your point (it is a narrative I hear every night), I would suggest that increased assistance in the classroom would certainly be a starting point.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Slava

Failure seems like the most logical. Why pass them along to the next level when we know they're not ready?

I am 30 years old, so maybe older people can chime in. When I was in school, there wasn't a constant flux in my grade between people being held back year to year. You went with your grade group essentially regardless of performance, and that was 20 years ago. High School is a different story, but I believe that it largely still is. So was there a time that you went into your school year with the legitimate threat that you would not move on to the next grade with your peers?

There are legitimate consequences from the socialization aspect of schooling to doing this, but I wouldn't be opposed to more of a 'passport' system where students have more freedom within the building itself in order to complete different mandatory and well thought out stages of education and could go on to the next stage of a particular subject area only when stamped to do so, making it less so about failure and mores about different people taking different amounts of time to complete a module. This would obviously be hard to do in Elementary.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Major Major

I am 30 years old, so maybe older people can chime in. When I was in school, there wasn't a constant flux in my grade between people being held back year to year. You went with your grade group essentially regardless of performance, and that was 20 years ago. High School is a different story, but I believe that it largely still is. So was there a time that you went into your school year with the legitimate threat that you would not move on to the next grade with your peers?

There are legitimate consequences from the socialization aspect of schooling to doing this, but I wouldn't be opposed to more of a 'passport' system where students have more freedom within the building itself in order to complete different mandatory and well thought out stages of education and could go on to the next stage of a particular subject area only when stamped to do so, making it less so about failure and mores about different people taking different amounts of time to complete a module. This would obviously be hard to do in Elementary.

I was part of a passport type program when it was a prototype back in NB in the late 90's. Was an absolute clown shown. Students all over the map and frustrated as a result, teachers ready to pull their hair out, and a bunch of the gifted kids sitting their doing nothing as they worked at a rate ten times quicker than the other kids and the teachers only had time to deal with the dummies 10 modules behind. Program was called "Foundation Block" or some BS like that.

I was done all my credits by September of my grade 12 year. I honestly could have been done everything 1 complete year early if I wanted to, but there was no point. I sat there for 8 months doing nothing waiting to graduate.

NB canned that program real quick. Doesn't work for teachers or students. My mother was a teacher and took the penalty and retired two years early to get out of being part of that program.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

So in that scenario you'd have the kid with the moustache reading and writing at a Kindergarten level but interacting socially at a junior high school level in a Kindergarten class?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm actually curious. I have no idea what the silver bullet fix is.

I know what you mean, but this is one of my frustrations in looking at education. That was the question I was asking Iliketopuck though. He listed these issues and I would like to see a concrete idea of what these consequences should be.

We have a group of experts (teachers, admin, and people who work in this system all day every day), and all we as the general public hear is that these problems exist. At some point someone in that group of experts needs to come to the table with solutions or at least paths to go down. I would hope that these solutions involve something other than more money. Maybe we need to change the way classes are formed and split off kids who are learning disabled from ESL from the normal tract. Maybe we do hold more kids back if they're not able to perform the work required at certain grade-levels? To me that is an academic consequence for an academic issue. I really don 't know what makes sense either, but that is something I would hope the experts in the field would come to the table with.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Major Major

I am 30 years old, so maybe older people can chime in. When I was in school, there wasn't a constant flux in my grade between people being held back year to year. You went with your grade group essentially regardless of performance, and that was 20 years ago. High School is a different story, but I believe that it largely still is. So was there a time that you went into your school year with the legitimate threat that you would not move on to the next grade with your peers?

There are legitimate consequences from the socialization aspect of schooling to doing this, but I wouldn't be opposed to more of a 'passport' system where students have more freedom within the building itself in order to complete different mandatory and well thought out stages of education and could go on to the next stage of a particular subject area only when stamped to do so, making it less so about failure and mores about different people taking different amounts of time to complete a module. This would obviously be hard to do in Elementary.

I guess I didn't see many kids held back, but there were a few here and there. The thing is that while I was never close to being one of them it was in the back of mind at times and I knew that if I didn't do the work it was at least a distant possibility.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Slava

Failure seems like the most logical. Why pass them along to the next level when we know they're not ready?

Students can't fail or be left behind any more. My kid started school last school year and he is December-born so he is the youngest in his class. Because of that he is/was a bit behind developmentally and likely will be for a few of the early years (hopefully not for too long though.) We asked his kindergarten teacher if he could re-do kindergarten and she said that they don't hold kids back any more. They don't like to separate the kids from their peers because it potentially causes social issues.

[Mr.Coffee]

I want a system where good teachers are rewarded and paid very well, and poor ones are at risk of job loss. Just like the real world.