Flames Fan Forum

[united]

Originally Posted by saillias

Players who got full NTCs or NMCs last summer:
Beleskey
Ehrhoff
Sekera
Soderberg (never hit UFA, trade and sign from Boston)
Niemi
Green
Beauchemin

Treliving also didn't specify which off season this occurred in. Could have been 2014.

[united]

Originally Posted by getbak

There's nothing to be disappointed about. Burke had high praise for him. He said he watched him on Friday (Burke was in Providence to get inducted into the Providence College Sports Hall of Fame) and he has great size and all the right tools, he just isn't at an NHL pace yet, which is to be expected for a guy in College.

He'll probably need some time in the AHL, but they sounded very high on him.

The only way he walks is if he chooses to. Treliving said they will be offering him a contract and have every intention of signing him.

Thanks, getbak. I see I poorly-worded it, but I didn't mean it as them being down on him - quite the opposite. As in his only weakness now is the pace, which is a good thing.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Faceoffs in key situations are very important. He's right, you win the draw on the PK and you automatically kill 30 seconds, other than the team setting up exactly how they want with full posession. It is most definitely significant.

That doesn't make any sense.

Even the best face off guys in the league only float around 55%. Players don't get suddenly better or worse on the dot just because they are on special teams.

You mean to tell me that the Flames suck on the PK because they lose the faceoff 55% of the time (at most)?

No, that doesn't make sense.

Our PK sucks because we collapse towards the net in an effort to block shots. We give the opposition so much time and space that they can cycle to puck as low as the top of the circle with no pressure. We only have one guy up top, and he roams around, giving the other team way to much time to make any play they want.

It's not because of faceoffs. It's because of bad coaching.

[MrMastodonFarm]

It's also because of face-offs. It's like their can't be more than one reason why something fails.

Crazy tunnel vision.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by saillias

Players who got full NTCs or NMCs last summer:
Beleskey
Ehrhoff
Sekera
Soderberg (never hit UFA, trade and sign from Boston)
Niemi
Green
Beauchemin

After how many important goals he scored on us, I could definitely see Beleskey as the guy, Niemi would be the only other maybe guy. None of the D make any sense.

I'd easily take Frolik over Beleskey though.

As for Jankowski, the 51st pick in 2015 would have barely been an adequate alternative. The likelihood that 2017's draft is anywhere near as good is minimal. Janko is a better prospect than anything we would get there and it would be a hit to the organization if he isn't in the system next year.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

It's also because of face-offs. It's like their can't be more than one reason why something fails.

Crazy tunnel vision.

In the grand scheme of everything? No, it's not a major reason worth mentioning. It's scary that our coach thinks it's the main reason.

Even if the Flames were an elite team on faceoffs and won 55% of the draws on the PK, they are now playing with a now only slightly loaded dice. Faceoff ranges between good and bad centremen do not range significantly enough for it to be a mitigating or causing factor.

Now consider how many times a goal was scored scored because the Flames lost a faceoff that they would have won if they were a better faceoff team. It is almost completely negligible. Not zero, correct, but not enough to concern oneself with.

I'm not the one with tunnel vision here.

[Caged Great]

On our show yesterday oddly enough, I mentioned faceoffs as being a contributing factor to why the Flames have the 30th ranked pk. It's not the only reason, but it takes 20 seconds off the clock. If they had an elite faceoff guy, that would probably be enough to raise the pk from 30th to 25th, possibly even higher.

That's not a huge thing, but it's something. There are other things that are necessary to change to make it better as well, namely get better penalty killers as well as improving the system itself.

Faceoffs by themselves aren't the magical cure all, but it is something that contributes to improved results. Over the course of a season, it might mean an additional few points in the standings. That can be the difference between playoffs and not, or home ice potentially. Not a huge thing though, talent is by far more important, but it is something.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

That doesn't make any sense.

Even the best face off guys in the league only float around 55%. Players don't get suddenly better or worse on the dot just because they are on special teams.

You mean to tell me that the Flames suck on the PK because they lose the faceoff 55% of the time (at most)?

No, that doesn't make sense.

Our PK sucks because we collapse towards the net in an effort to block shots. We give the opposition so much time and space that they can cycle to puck as low as the top of the circle with no pressure. We only have one guy up top, and he roams around, giving the other team way to much time to make any play they want.

It's not because of faceoffs. It's because of bad coaching.

I just looked into this. Last year the Flames had the following face-off takers:
- Monahan, 49.3% for 1830 faceoffs
- Backlund, 48.3% for 875 faceoffs
- Stajan, 50.3% for 602 faceoffs
- Jooris, 48.7% for 567 faceoffs
- Granlund, 36.8% for 524 faceoffs

Let's say for example all these centremen improved by 3%. There would be an increase in the following faceoffs
- Monahan, 55 more faceoffs won
- Backlund, 25 more faceoffs won
- Stajan, 17 more faceoffs won
- Jooris, 17 more faceoffs won
- Granlund, 15 more faceoffs won

That's a total of 129 faceoffs, which is a little more than 1 per game. Not enough to affect the 189 times short handed last year.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I just looked into this. Last year the Flames had the following face-off takers:
- Monahan, 49.3% for 1830 faceoffs
- Backlund, 48.3% for 875 faceoffs
- Stajan, 50.3% for 602 faceoffs
- Jooris, 48.7% for 567 faceoffs
- Granlund, 36.8% for 524 faceoffs

Let's say for example all these centremen improved by 3%. There would be an increase in the following faceoffs
- Monahan, 55 more faceoffs won
- Backlund, 25 more faceoffs won
- Stajan, 17 more faceoffs won
- Jooris, 17 more faceoffs won
- Granlund, 15 more faceoffs won

That's a total of 129 faceoffs, which is a little more than 1 per game. Not enough to affect the 189 times short handed last year.

Also now factor in that not every faceoff lost should be considered handing the opposition a chance on a silver plate, and not every faceoff won is a guaranteed dump.

Absolutely negligible.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

After how many important goals he scored on us, I could definitely see Beleskey as the guy, Niemi would be the only other maybe guy. None of the D make any sense.

I'd easily take Frolik over Beleskey though.

As for Jankowski, the 51st pick in 2015 would have barely been an adequate alternative. The likelihood that 2017's draft is anywhere near as good is minimal. Janko is a better prospect than anything we would get there and it would be a hit to the organization if he isn't in the system next year.

Not necessarily true. The 2012 NHL draft was a lousy year. The 2017 could be much better.

The problem being is that Jankowski could be in the NHL by 2017-18, whereas a 2017 draft pick could finally be in the NHL in the 2021-22 season

[getbak]

Something else... A guy asked about Gillies. Treliving had high praise for him. He said that in Penticton, all the reps from the different teams got together to rate the best players and everyone had Gillies as the best player of the weekend (excluding that kid from the Oilers).

Unfortunately, he got bumped during the game against the Dinos and had some concussion symptoms (but not a concussion), which kept him out of a lot of training camp. Then, he went to Stockton and had a great first few games (2 shutouts in his first 3 games), but was struggling with his hip, so they decided he should have the surgery.

He has been in Calgary working with the staff and will be here for the rest of the season.

They have high expectations for him going forward.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Also now factor in that not every faceoff lost should be considered handing the opposition a chance on a silver plate, and not every faceoff won is a guaranteed dump.

Absolutely negligible.

Meh, its just looking at the numbers.

Another way to look at them is Boston won 255 more faceoffs than the Flames last year, which is 3 more faceoffs per game. The Flames were short handed 2.3 times per game, so had the Flames been the best faceoff team they could've won an extra faceoff for every penalty kill and then some.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Meh, its just looking at the numbers.

Another way to look at them is Boston won 255 more faceoffs than the Flames last year, which is 3 more faceoffs per game. The Flames were short handed 2.3 times per game, so had the Flames been the best faceoff team they could've won an extra faceoff for every penalty kill and then some.

But it doesn't work like that either. If you assume that the best faceoff team will win 3 more faceoffs per game than the Flames, they won't all occur on the PK.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

But it doesn't work like that either. If you assume that the best faceoff team will win 3 more faceoffs per game than the Flames, they won't all occur on the PK.

I disagree. I would argue more faceoffs take place on special teams than continuous 5 on 5, relative to minutes. Think about it, a penalty killing team ices the puck a lot, whereas a power play team has more shots (proportionally) on net than 5 on 5, which results in more goalie held whistles.

So there's a concentration of whistles on special teams relative to 5 on 5.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I disagree. I would argue more faceoffs take place on special teams than continuous 5 on 5, relative to minutes. Think about it, a penalty killing team ices the puck a lot, whereas a power play team has more shots (proportionally) on net than 5 on 5, which results in more goalie held whistles.

So there's a concentration of whistles on special teams relative to 5 on 5.

You still said all 3 would be on the pk??? Doesnt work like that.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I disagree. I would argue more faceoffs take place on special teams than continuous 5 on 5, relative to minutes. Think about it, a penalty killing team ices the puck a lot, whereas a power play team has more shots (proportionally) on net than 5 on 5, which results in more goalie held whistles.

So there's a concentration of whistles on special teams relative to 5 on 5.

Absolutely whistles occur more often on the PK.

But again, if the best team in the league at faceoffs only averages 3 more wins per game, they will not all occur on the PK.

If your average game has 60 faceoffs, an average of 20 will need to occur while the Flames are on the PK before they can expect to win one extra faceoff that they wouldn't have won if they were bad.

The Flames aren't taking anything close to 20 faceoffs a game on the penalty kill.

[Samonadreau]

Its fair to say them singling out faceoffs as the biggest issue with our PK is worrisome.

[Chingas]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I think I know where the next ten pages of this discussion is going.

Nope.

Originally Posted by MattyC

Faceoffs .

Originally Posted by Ashasx

It's not because of faceoffs. It's because of bad coaching.

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

It's also because of face-offs.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

faceoff .

Originally Posted by Caged Great

faceoffs Faceoffs .

Originally Posted by MarkGio

face-off takers:
-
faceoffs, .

Originally Posted by Ashasx

faceoff .

Originally Posted by MarkGio

faceoffs .

Originally Posted by Ashasx

faceoff .

Originally Posted by MarkGio

faceoffs

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

You still said all 3 would be on the pk??? Doesnt work like that.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

faceoffs

[blender]

Re the faceoffs issue:
They may just be throwing something out there at the forum rather than going into depth about an area of the team's performance that is lacking.

In other words, pointing to an area that does need work rather than throwing anybody under the bus.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Absolutely whistles occur more often on the PK.

But again, if the best team in the league at faceoffs only averages 3 more wins per game, they will not all occur on the PK.

If your average game has 60 faceoffs, an average of 20 will need to occur while the Flames are on the PK before they can expect to win one extra faceoff that they wouldn't have won if they were bad.

The Flames aren't taking anything close to 20 faceoffs a game on the penalty kill.

That's true. Since the Flames only average 4.5 minutes of PK time per game, its hard to imagine that many faceoffs in such a concentrated period. I could believe a max of 10 faceoffs per game could be attributed to the PK