Alberta students to define their own gender

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Nope, which is why I added the second part. I think these policies will at worst result in a neutral outcome, and at best maybe improve the experience of being transgender student.

Well, by its definition, a policy like this can't be neutral. It is designed to have an effect.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well, by its definition, a policy like this can't be neutral. It is designed to have an effect.

Okay, if you want to split hairs then I'll say a neutral effect on the suicide rates and incidences of violence and bullying faced by trans students. Do you see this worsening under these new policies or somehow negatively affecting other students in a significant manner?

[PepsiFree]

Interesting discussion going on (glad I mostly stepped away) but I feel like I can pop back in to say:

Polak, men do not have an advantage in sport. They have an advantage in select sports where upper body strength is a primary tool but otherwise men and women can physically compete at the same level.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Okay, if you want to split hairs then I'll say a neutral effect on the suicide rates and incidences of violence and bullying faced by trans students. Do you see this worsening under these new policies or somehow negatively affecting other students in a significant manner?

So you are saying that you will consider this directive a success if the number of suicides doesn't... increase?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Interesting discussion going on (glad I mostly stepped away) but I feel like I can pop back in to say:

Polak, men do not have an advantage in sport. They have an advantage in select sports where upper body strength is a primary tool but otherwise men and women can physically compete at the same level.

Not that what he is saying is really anything but tangential, though what you have said here is demonstrably false with a few small exceptions.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolog...re-not/260927/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_athletics

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/

This is an interesting study. I'll have to do a more thorough reading of it later. I wonder if students in schools with anti-bullying programs reported higher levels of bullying due in part to those programs educating kids to be able to recognize bullying better.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is an interesting study. I'll have to do a more thorough reading of it later. I wonder if students in schools with anti-bullying programs reported higher levels of bullying due in part to those programs educating kids to be able to recognize bullying better.

Or they were inclined to see bullying where there wasn't any.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

So you are saying that you will consider this directive a success if the number of suicides doesn't... increase?

Not at all. I'm saying I'm willing to give it a shot because it at least has some potential to decrease suicides and I haven't seen any good arguments supporting the notion that there are any tangible negative drawbacks to it.

[johnnyrocket03]

While I am totally for this and am glad that as a society, we are moving closer all the time to inclusion. I am not sure how I feel about the adult sports side of this and the effects it will have. Fans of MMA have seen the full effect of what can happen when things like this come into place. Look up Fallon Fox on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.

Fallon was a fully developed man who made the transition to a woman and I am not ashamed to admit it was a little hard to watch her last fight and how badly her opponent was beaten and hurt. I think it would be tough to watch the video and not assume there was some level of physical advantage, no?

The other side of the sports argument that I have a tough time with is the so called "sanctity" of sport and the record books and whatnot. Does it not diminish the accomplishments of athletes like Hayley Wickenheiser, Mia Hamm and Serena Williams to know that in the future its possible for someone who is transgender and could have the full frame and build of a male athlete to crush their records and achievements?

I think its silly to argue about kids playing sports. Anyone should play because the results don't matter and its more about learning the sport, building character and life skills (learning how to lose/win, teamwork etc.)

I am no expert but thought I'd add the couple things I'm curious about.

Hoping for no backlash!

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Or they were inclined to see bullying where there wasn't any.

That too.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Not at all. I'm saying I'm willing to give it a shot because it at least has some potential to decrease suicides and I haven't seen any good arguments supporting the notion that there are any tangible negative drawbacks to it.

So basically anything I have ever read on this subject shows that the support of parents and families is the most important aspect in reducing transgender suicide rates - which has been my point since I started this onerous discussion.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

So basically anything I have ever read on this subject shows that the support of parents and families is the most important aspect in reducing transgender suicide rates - which has been my point since I started this onerous discussion.

I think that's obvious, but even so, how does it hurt to have additional support at school, especially in cases where parental support is absent? Furthermore, you would hope that having these policies in place, combined with a better sex ed program, that there would be a normalizing effect on the other students.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

EDIT: Oh wow I didn't realize how much this thread had grown... maybe I'd better step back here. I'll leave the below, but FYI I haven't read most of this discussion which might have helped.

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

You lot obviously view sexuality and gender as being intrinsically tied together, when they exist apart from each other. Changing the public discourse regarding transgendered/gender-fluid individuals is long-overdue.

You must understand that this is a highly controversial statement about human biology and psychology that you're not at all qualified to make. I don't even know that you're wrong, but you seem to be espousing this dogmatic stuff on transgender issues from a pulpit as if this is all settled. It isn't.

I am mostly agnostic on this topic, but I do find Yooh's point persuasive. Kids, at a young age, are not intellectually formed enough to be able to even comprehend these concepts. I'm not transgendered, so I can't speak from any personal experience, but I suspect that there's a journey of self-discovery that occurs as one develops mentally and finds out who one is. This seems at least somewhat analogous to sexual orientation. It makes perfect sense to me that that journey should happen as it happens, and that the pace of it will differ massively from person to person.

[peter12]

Moreover, it appears that suicide risks increase when there are special considerations given to transgendered children.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.ed...port-Final.pdf

[ernie]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why are you surprised by this? You do realize that the public in general were almost wholly ignorant of this stuff a mere decade or so ago, right? And that not everyone reads the same news sources or hangs out in the same social media platforms? Social changes takes decades - and not just because some people are reactionary, but because a lot of people simply aren't very plugged in to new ideas, new problems, and new norms, or they're plugged into different ones than other people are.

Why? I suppose I give people far too much credit. It's a topic that has been explored in a significant way over all forms of media. And I'm not talking about whether you accept such rule changes or even the person themselves but people should know by now that gender and sexual orientation are not the same.

Sex, gender, and sexual orientation are all different things.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Moreover, it appears that suicide risks increase when there are special considerations given to transgendered children.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.ed...port-Final.pdf

Not surprising that suicide rates are higher among transgender kids with preexisting mental illnesses. I really don't understand why we as a society continue to be so complacent towards mental health.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by johnnyrocket03

While I am totally for this and am glad that as a society, we are moving closer all the time to inclusion. I am not sure how I feel about the adult sports side of this and the effects it will have. Fans of MMA have seen the full effect of what can happen when things like this come into place. Look up Fallon Fox on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.

Fallon was a fully developed man who made the transition to a woman and I am not ashamed to admit it was a little hard to watch her last fight and how badly her opponent was beaten and hurt. I think it would be tough to watch the video and not assume there was some level of physical advantage, no?

The other side of the sports argument that I have a tough time with is the so called "sanctity" of sport and the record books and whatnot. Does it not diminish the accomplishments of athletes like Hayley Wickenheiser, Mia Hamm and Serena Williams to know that in the future its possible for someone who is transgender and could have the full frame and build of a male athlete to crush their records and achievements?

I think its silly to argue about kids playing sports. Anyone should play because the results don't matter and its more about learning the sport, building character and life skills (learning how to lose/win, teamwork etc.)

I am no expert but thought I'd add the couple things I'm curious about.

Hoping for no backlash!

I just googled "Fallon Fox Last Fight," and watched her fight against Allanna Jones. That is like Circus Maximus level of barbarism there.

[johnnyrocket03]

Originally Posted by peter12

I just googled "Fallon Fox Last Fight," and watched her fight against Allanna Jones. That is like Circus Maximus level of barbarism there.

The one against Tamikka Brents is what I was talking about.

[jammies]

Top-down policies aren't created ex nihilo, this is an evolutionary idea born of a revolution that has been happening over the last 40-odd years. Like any other set of rules created by humanity, it is flawed, but arguing against it on the basis that it is social engineering of a totalitarian nature is no more than a blindness to ALL law and regulation being social engineering of one sort or another, and that the lack of law or regulation in certain areas can be equally significant in shaping behaviour.

Just for example, laws around maternity leave have been created and have changed over time, and the lack of laws in this area in the past was a definite disincentive to complete female emancipation. There is a cost and a cultural effect in continuing to do nothing different for the transgendered, just like there would have been a cost and cultural effect in never implementing mat leave laws. Keeping the status quo is a choice with consequences, and feels like oppression to someone marginalized by it, so it is, like most things, an argument between what path does the most good and least harm.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by johnnyrocket03

The one against Tamikka Brents is what I was talking about.

So after doing a bit of googling on the subject, it appears that she may actually have a disadvantage.

No wonder. Transgender surgery is a very dangerous, mostly ineffective, and brutal procedure for any human body.