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Old 01-27-2016, 01:54 PM   #161
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You are correct. This is not totalitarian. This is aggressively intolerant to an opposing opinion. It does become totalitarian, when this same aggressive intolerance starts coming from the government, educational institutions and mass-media.
Ah yes, the old "quit being intolerant of my intolerance" argument.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:54 PM   #162
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Competitive sports in school is hardly the most important part of this. Surely you must see that?
But it's something that needs to be considered unless you plan on implementing exceptions to things? Quickly spirals out of control from there.

Matty hit it on the head too with age. I think it would make way more sense to have kids self identify when they're older. What does a 10 year old know about gender?
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:56 PM   #163
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Ah yes, the old "quit being intolerant of my intolerance" argument.
Labeling disagreement as intolerance is the key to winning here. Go on.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:57 PM   #164
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No, the idea is so that some girl can play soccer with the girls.
Some girl that's significantly stronger and faster because she has a mans body. Do you not see where the issue lies with that?

This is going to end with co-ed sports in high school and you're going to see womens participation fall off the map.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:59 PM   #165
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The kids will learn a very important lesson, life isn't fair. Get used to it.
Why can't the transgendered person who wants to play sports be the one who learns that lesson? Have a penis? You're playing with the men. Don't like it, well guess what. Life's not fair.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:59 PM   #166
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Some girl that's significantly stronger and faster because she has a mans body. Do you not see where the issue lies with that?
What if a woman is significantly stronger and faster than other women because she just is that way genetically?

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This is going to end with co-ed sports in high school and you're going to see womens participation fall off the map.
How so?
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:00 PM   #167
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Are you guys seriously calling for high school and older genetic males to be able to play on competitive womens teams because that's how they self-identify?
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:01 PM   #168
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Pretty tough to take the "There's bigger issues" crowd at face value.
Believe what you want. I am genuinely fascinated at which of the myriad of human experiences becomes a high-profile issue, and why. It's one of the reasons I spent years of my life studying and working in journalism. But maybe that was all just a ruse to cloak my incorrigible bigotry.

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I don't agree with all of your points and to me it seems like you are definitely more anti-bureaucracy than anti-trans, but I'm not surprised that any posts that aren't supportive are met with some pretty fierce opposition. These types of issues often have the bigots hiding behind a veil of other reasons that they use to hide their true agenda.
I suspect very few people - or very few people who aren't religious fundamentalists - are anti-trans. In fact, I'm not even sure what anti-trans means. Don't believe transgendered people exist? Believe they should pretend to be whatever gender their parents decide? How many people have you heard express those opinions?

No, this is just another social justice issue where a fraction of people are against or uncomfortable with something, a fraction are passionate advocates of it, and most simply don't give a toss. And yet those who are passionate advocates feel they need to bring everyone into their camp, and don't hesitate to accuse any who don't express the correct sentiments or demonstrate the proper enthusiasm of being bigots.

It's all about public piety, no different from what our grandparents were doing in church when they made a public show of wearing their best clothes, singing hymns, and wagging fingers at the layabouts who played pool instead. Virtue signalling, halo-polishing, denouncing the impious - this stuff is all old as dirt.
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:06 PM   #169
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Ummm that's exactly what could happen.

Plus how do you think a regular womens team will compete with a womans team with two or more biological males playing on it cause they identify as women? Imagine if that's a championship game and all of the sudden the best girl on the other team is better defended against cause she's up against a biological man and boom. Bye Bye scholarship.

Men and Women should be separated in sports. Jesus. Why does everything have to so inclusive these days.
the above is important.

Thiis whole post may probably be wrong and I should just keep my big mouth shut.

I'm not talking about intramural teams, or phys'd classes or anything like that. I'm talking about the for competitive teams.

We've seen a lot of girls pushing up to the higher levels in hockey and football for example. Two of the more physical games. It used to be in hockey that it was rare to see a girl play on a men's competitive team and they were usually done and playing girls hockey by the time they hit 14 or 15 and body types became a dis-advantage. With less emphasis on hitting in these games they tend to go a little further before they hit the glass ceiling.

On football, you see lots of girls playing at the atom level, a few push through to Bantam, and there are a rare few that get to highschool.

I've known two girls that have played high school ball, one was an 0-lineman and one was a defensive back. The defensive back didn't get a lot of playing time at the high school level, because she was a couple of steps behind in terms of speed, and strength, but she had the aggression and worked the technique. But because of the first two, she really only saw field time when a game was out of reach. the other girl is an offensive lineman, and she gets regular snaps, she tends to be technique strong, because without that she would get murdered.

But chances are you're never going to see a girl at higher levels unless its in a kicking role.

Now on the other side, and lets use this as a hypothetical even though it could be and might not be.

But you have a woman's football league, its girls from 18 to whatever. One team has a trans female at QB. Her playbook is basically two pages long, take the ball and roll and run or throw it 40 yards downfield. Basically no one can touch her speed wise, or throwing wise. She a massive unfair advantage to her team because she is stronger, faster and more durable then anything else on the field by a wide margin.

Now lets say as the coach of that team, you realize that speed and strength advantage so you play her two ways, at QB and at linebacker, two way play isn't illegal in this league because most teams are short rostered, because recruiting woman athletes to a new sport is tough. Now you have a linebacker that is x degrees faster, more agile, and hits like a bus.

Now lets go back to the competitive sports where competition matters, lets look at track and field. You're competing in the discus throw, there are scouts or whatever from various college teams all holding a scholar ship. There is a trans girl competing and out throws every one by 20 yards. because as much as we think that hormone treatments will reduce the competitive disadvantage threes nothing enforcing it.
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:12 PM   #170
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Labeling disagreement as intolerance is the key to winning here. Go on.
You've claimed that the government's stance is intolerant. How exactly is it intolerant to want school bathroom's and sports teams to be more inclusive?
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:13 PM   #171
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You've claimed that the government's stance is intolerant...
Where?
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:13 PM   #172
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Ahem...
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...ithout-surgery
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:15 PM   #173
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Where?
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It does become totalitarian, when this same aggressive intolerance starts coming from the government, educational institutions and mass-media.
Um...?
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:15 PM   #174
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What if a woman is significantly stronger and faster than other women because she just is that way genetically?
Then that's all fair. It happens. By and large though, women and men are usually within the same size and strength ranges and there is a measurable difference between the two. ####, that is a universal constant across the animal kingdom. There's almost always a physically dominant sex.

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How so?
Seriously? Think about how many spots will be left on teams for even average female athletes if they have to compete with men for spots.
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:17 PM   #175
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Seriously? Think about how many spots will be left on teams for even average female athletes if they have to compete with men for spots.
Do you honestly think that there are hordes of male athletes just waiting for this loophole to open up so they can hit up hormone therapy and dominate women's sports? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:17 PM   #176
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Um...?
Which part of that post do you disagree with?
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:17 PM   #177
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that's kind of the point I'm getting at, there is going to be and almost has to be a double standard applied to Transgendered competing in competitive and elite level sports.

Female to male in male sports will be ok because of physiology

Male to female in female sports will be more strictly regulated for the same reasons.
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:19 PM   #178
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Which part of that post do you disagree with?
Do you have the short-term memory of a hamster or something? I said you called the government's stance intolerant, you asked where and I pointed out where. So did you or did you not call the government's stance, which is that school bathrooms and sports teams should be more inclusive to trans children, intolerant?

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Old 01-27-2016, 02:19 PM   #179
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Do you honestly think that there are hordes of male athletes just waiting for this loophole to open up so they can hit up hormone therapy and dominate women's sports? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
I don't think any one is waiting to do it. That doesn't mean it's not going to happen. At some point in the near future there will be a precedent set with this issue and it's going to be messy.
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:21 PM   #180
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I don't think any one is waiting to do it. That doesn't mean it's not going to happen. At some point in the near future there will be a precedent set with this issue and it's going to be messy.
"There's not historical precedent for this, and there doesn't seem to be any present signs of an epidemic, so obviously that means there's going to be a major problem on our hands in the future."

Real sound logic there.
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