*SPOILER DISCUSSION* Star Wars The Force Awakens *POST HERE AFTER SEEING THE MOVIE*

[Coach]

Originally Posted by jammies

The new Vader-y guy looks like an underfed hipster, so add terrible casting to the list of sins.

Think of the film what you want, but this point is getting pretty annoying for me.

He was supposed to be that way. He's meant to be intimidating with the mask on, but a quivering emo cry baby with it off.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by MattyC

He's meant to be intimidating with the mask on

He's not.

Vader was physically imposing, in every scene he dominates those around him. His body language was threatening, his voice not only deep and powerful but his words always spoken with conviction and underlying anger. The character was genius and I doubt the original movie would even have been half as successful without his presence in it.

This isn't subtle moviemaking, I understand very well what the character is intended to be, but it is neither a good idea here, nor is it well executed. Vader's real face should never have been revealed, but at least it took until the third movie before they made that mistake. Here you are shown it's just a selfish little boy in a costume right away, and selfish little boys, while certainly capable of evil, are not intimidating.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by jammies

He's not.

Vader was physically imposing, in every scene he dominates those around him. His body language was threatening, his voice not only deep and powerful but his words always spoken with conviction and underlying anger. The character was genius and I doubt the original movie would even have been half as successful without his presence in it.

This isn't subtle moviemaking, I understand very well what the character is intended to be, but it is neither a good idea here, nor is it well executed. Vader's real face should never have been revealed, but at least it took until the third movie before they made that mistake. Here you are shown it's just a selfish little boy in a costume right away, and selfish little boys, while certainly capable of evil, are not intimidating.

Ren is suppossed to be more of a Vader in training. By the time Star Wars Episode IV came out, Vader had been Vader for over two decades. He was a leader in a well established and ruthless dictatorship.

Ren on the other hand is still getting used to the job and hasn't been totally broken yet, the way Vader had been. Ren at this point has far more in common with Anakin in Episode 3 than Vader in episode 4.

Ren being weak and whiny was totally intentional. We'll see if they transition to more of a Vader type figure in the later movies, and if they pull that off. However, they purposely made Ren emotionally weak to contrast him with Vader in episodes IV-VI.

Also, revealing Vader's face in Episode VI was pure genious, and one of the greatest movie moments of all time. It not only showed that "Vader" had been defeated but revealed the false promises of the Dark Side in an extremely effective way. That moment is the conclusion of the entire trilogy.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by jammies

He's not.

Vader was physically imposing, in every scene he dominates those around him. His body language was threatening, his voice not only deep and powerful but his words always spoken with conviction and underlying anger. The character was genius and I doubt the original movie would even have been half as successful without his presence in it.

This isn't subtle moviemaking, I understand very well what the character is intended to be, but it is neither a good idea here, nor is it well executed. Vader's real face should never have been revealed, but at least it took until the third movie before they made that mistake. Here you are shown it's just a selfish little boy in a costume right away, and selfish little boys, while certainly capable of evil, are not intimidating.

He's not supposed to be Vader. He is supposed to be very much what you're describing. A Vader wannabe. A selfish little boy playing dress up for his hero. The only reason he's given any respect is that people fear his power. That's it. Wanting to see Vader, and not getting it, is kind of your self-made disappointment.

I do agree that they should have kept his mask on, at least until the scene with Solo.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Matata

I expressed similar concerns and was chewed out for 3 pages. Brace yourself.

What I've realized since my initial post, was what really killed the movie for me was the complete lack of tension, about halfway through the movie I realized that i knew how it was going to end and all the new characters were so poorly defined that I didn't care what happened to them. What's a story without tension?

I dunno, I checked my watch a few times thinking, OK, when is Luke gonna show up? SO that created tension. But ya, gotta agree with that. Even after when I thought most of the baddies got blown up, you start reading online about their roles in the next movies. So somehow they all got off the planet? At least in A New Hope, when the Death Star blew, everyone was gone, except Vader who had a good reason not to be on it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I dunno, I checked my watch a few times thinking, OK, when is Luke gonna show up? SO that created tension. But ya, gotta agree with that. Even after when I thought most of the baddies got blown up, you start reading online about their roles in the next movies. So somehow they all got off the planet? At least in A New Hope, when the Death Star blew, everyone was gone, except Vader who had a good reason not to be on it.

You're proactively assuming they can't make up good reasons for any of the surviving characters.

And that's the media that kills the tension in this scenario, not the film(s) themselves.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by blankall

Also, revealing Vader's face in Episode VI was pure genious, and one of the greatest movie moments of all time. It not only showed that "Vader" had been defeated but revealed the false promises of the Dark Side in an extremely effective way. That moment is the conclusion of the entire trilogy.

Have to disagree here, the reveal is one of the reason's the third film is far weaker than the first two. The ravaged look of the Emperor and the confinement of Vader to his mask was more than enough to show the perils of following the Dark Side, and really, the "false promises" of power weren't at all false - Obi-Wan was a hermit on some obscure desert planet and Yoda lived in the jungle with the monkeys, while the Emperor ran the whole galaxy and Vader was his right-hand man.

"*I* am your father" was a great movie moment, seeing Vader's fat pasty face was not. A far better ending would have been him attacking the Emperor in the penultimate scene (preferably before 10 minutes or whatever it was of "Die! Die Skywalker! *zzzzzt* *zzzzzt* Die some more! *zzzzt*") and being killed by him but allowing Luke to kill the Emperor in turn. How sweet would have a 2 on 1 Vader/Luke vs Emperor light sabre battle have been? But no, Lucas wanted to tell a vapid story of death-bed repentance instead, incidentally making his supposed hero merely a catalyst for events instead of the instigator thereof.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by jammies

Have to disagree here, the reveal is one of the reason's the third film is far weaker than the first two. The ravaged look of the Emperor and the confinement of Vader to his mask was more than enough to show the perils of following the Dark Side, and really, the "false promises" of power weren't at all false - Obi-Wan was a hermit on some obscure desert planet and Yoda lived in the jungle with the monkeys, while the Emperor ran the whole galaxy and Vader was his right-hand man.

"*I* am your father" was a great movie moment, seeing Vader's fat pasty face was not. A far better ending would have been him attacking the Emperor in the penultimate scene (preferably before 10 minutes or whatever it was of "Die! Die Skywalker! *zzzzzt* *zzzzzt* Die some more! *zzzzt*") and being killed by him but allowing Luke to kill the Emperor in turn. How sweet would have a 2 on 1 Vader/Luke vs Emperor light sabre battle have been? But no, Lucas wanted to tell a vapid story of death-bed repentance instead, incidentally making his supposed hero merely a catalyst for events instead of the instigator thereof.

Maybe "false promise" isn't the right word, but it was certainly a raw deal with the dark side. Yes, you got power, but your wife died and you ended up a walking zombie trapped inside a robotic shell.

What made ROTJ the worst of the original trilogy was the overly child-centric use of the Ewoks. Even then, ROTJ isn't a bad movie. There are a ton of great scenes in ROTJ and overall it was still a great movie.

The bit where Luke looks at his robotic hand and then at the robotic stub he has cut off Vader is genious. I think you're being facetious here, as I previously stated, the removal of Vader's mask is one of the greatest moments in movie history.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by jammies

Titanic wasn't all that great, but it was far better than this inept mess. The acting was bad and the script was far too reliant on ridiculously improbable coincidences. The new Vader-y guy looks like an underfed hipster, so add terrible casting to the list of sins. The effects were cool, but so are the effects in any big-budget movie nowadays, so no points for that. Nothing about this movie was original or interesting, it wasn't just an acknowledged rehash of the first Star Wars film, it was essentially a reboot done with even more wooden characters, no Alec Guinness, and Harrison Ford's zombie shambling around the set.

Also annoying - why are the rebels fine with the continued enslavement of sentients like BB-8? Apparently freeing the galaxy doesn't include all conscious beings, just those based on meat. It's two groups of fascists fighting for control, and at least one has a modicum of fashion sense. Let's hope they win out in episode VIII and free us from ever having to see those hideous orange flight suits again.

I can't be the only one who thought this was trash. Admittedly, I didn't think much of any of the other Star Wars films either, but at least the first two were original for their time, and had the iconic Vader and the anti-hero Solo to make them memorable. Nothing about this was memorable. Much of it was just bad.

Originally Posted by Matata

I expressed similar concerns and was chewed out for 3 pages. Brace yourself.

Anyone who goes to see a movie that is generally well received, knowing full well that they will hate it, deserves backlash because it just seems like trolling.

jammies straight up says he doesn't like Star Wars. Why would he even go see this then?

Moreover, I think that people who have very strict tastes in movies and hate 90% of everything they see probably have no business going to see a big budget action movie and then complaining about it later like they are surprised it wasn't the Godfather.

I would consider myself a person with a fairly narrow taste in movies, I can't stand most Hollywood blockbusters like Transformers, but when I do go see a piece of trash I generally don't act like I'm shocked that it sucks. So when posters come into a Star Wars thread, the most beloved film franchise of all time and one of the most beloved pop culture franchises of all time, and act like they just saw "Battlefield Earth" then it's a little bit expected that people are going to be defensive.

I also think it shows a complete lack of acknowledgement of the film itself and the genre it occupies. This is a tentpole franchise sequel. That is like the holy trinity of guaranteed crap. I highly doubt anyone is going to argue TFA deserves to be mentioned on a greatest of all time list. However, compared to its contemporaries, trash like Transformers, TMNT, Man of Steel, the prequels etc, it was Citizen Kane x 1000.

All that being said, I actually agree somewhat about Adam Driver being a little too emo for my liking. He almost needed to keep the helmet on the entire film. Then again after reading this thread, many people made arguments that he was meant to be a whiny emo bitch to show how far he was from achieving what Vader did, and that made me change my tune a bit.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by jammies

Have to disagree here, the reveal is one of the reason's the third film is far weaker than the first two. The ravaged look of the Emperor and the confinement of Vader to his mask was more than enough to show the perils of following the Dark Side

Showing his face was to reveal his return to the light, his human side, and casting away his dark, robotic shell even if it meant his death. It was about creating a connection between Luke and Anakin, not Luke and Vader.

[b]"*I* am your father" was a great movie moment, seeing Vader's fat pasty face was not. A far better ending would have been him attacking the Emperor in the penultimate scene (preferably before 10 minutes or whatever it was of "Die! Die Skywalker! *zzzzzt* *zzzzzt* Die some more! *zzzzt*") and being killed by him but allowing Luke to kill the Emperor in turn. How sweet would have a 2 on 1 Vader/Luke vs Emperor light sabre battle have been? But no, Lucas wanted to tell a vapid story of death-bed repentance instead, incidentally making his supposed hero merely a catalyst for events instead of the instigator thereof.

That sounds likes #### from the prequels. It wasn't about just killing the emperor, but how it was done. Luke's goal was to 'save' his father from the Dark Side. He showed Vader mercy after beating him, but refused to destroy him, and his punishment was feeling the wrath of the Emperor. He was willing to die rather than kill his father and turn to the Dark Side and that sacrifice is what turned Vader.

[CaptainCrunch]

to me with Ren more then anything else, up until he killed his father, he wasn't pure evil. He was caught in the middle being lured by the Dark Side and the Light Side.

It was interesting, my nephew got me the Sith Handbook for Christmas, it was kind of a joking gift because he knows that I'm a big Star Wars and I love the Sith. so maybe he wants me to follow the dark path.

But when you read it it really high lights some interesting things. We always hear that the Dark Side and the Sith were evil. But the Sith look at it more pragmatically as the term evil is a term employed by the weak to justify not freeing themselves.

for the Sith, the Dark Side is all about breaking the chains that stop you from fulfilling your destiny and reaching your potential, and controlling your world.

those chains, are things like family, friends, compassion, mercy, attachment to mundane possessions.

By sacrificing those things, you break those chains and your power grows.

With Kylo in this movie he was still very much chained. He was trying to be like his Grandfather without making the sacrifices that his grandfather made in the pusuit of power and control.

What was tougher for Anakin was that a lot of sacrifices were forced on him. the death of his mother, the perceived betrayal by the Jedi, even the death of his wife. Those chains that kept him from fully immersing in the Dark Side were snapped and removed by outside sources, mostly by people like the Jedi, and by Palpatine.

With Kylo, he was still lured by the Light Side, he still had love for his family. So yes when he put on the mask he felt for the most part that he was powerful and in control, even though he was clearly not, when the mask came off that personal illusion of himself was shattered, and he became more insecure and indecisive.

He had to finally make his first sacrifice and he wasn't sure that he wanted to. but he had come to that fork in the road that the force presents.

show mercy compassion love, spare yourself and your family pain and go down the light side. Or make that sacrifice, snap that first chain that's holding you down, kill the one you love. Kylo weighed the choices down and clearly made the decision for personal power and reaching for his destiny and killed his father. Now as they say he is going down the Dark Path and its going to dominate his destiny. They even made the point of marking him or scaring him, I doubt that outside of a key scene similar to Anakin being put in the suit, or the helmet coming down to cover Vader that we will see Kylo outside of his mask. I would also bet that after his hip got blown out that he is going to be wearing a new suit.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Reven look that they designed for him, but I expect to see a more intimidating look to go with his commitment to the darkside of the force and following his destiny to finish what his Grandfather had started.

Now the whole ROTJ thing.

I get the saying that removing the mask of Vader was to show the high price of the Dark Side and the lie that it represents, but I've always felt that was the suits job. For Anakin to fully become Vader, the Dark Side took everything from him and he was trapped in a suit that kept him alive.

I've always thought that the removal of the mask and reveal of his face more represented Anakin being freed from Slavery. there was never a moment that he wasn't a slave in the first 6 movies.

He was a slave as a child.
He was indentured to the Jedi and the Force and a slave of the prophesy
He was a Slave to Palpatine and more importantly to the Dark Side.

This was the lie of Anakin's life, the Sith believe that gaining power and sacrificing everything in pursuit of that power would snap the chains that keep you from gaining ultimate control. But the lie of the darkside is that the chains of compassion, morality, love, family etc are all broken, but they are replaced by the one chain stronger then the others, and that's the will of the Dark Side to leave you with nothing but it in your life.

Anakin removing that mask snapped that last chain and truly freed him.

The first dawn of light in your universe brings pain.

The light burns you. It will always burn you. Part of you will always lie upon black glass sand beside a lake of fire while flames chew upon your flesh.

You can hear yourself breathing. It comes hard, and harsh, and it scrapes nerves already raw, but you cannot stop it. You can never stop it. You cannot even slow it down.

You don’t even have lungs anymore.

Mechanisms hardwired into your chest breathe for you. They will pump oxygen into your bloodstream forever.

Lord Vader? Lord Vader, can you hear me?

And you can’t, not in the way you once did. Sensors in the shell that prisons your head trickle meaning directly into your brain.

You open your scorched-pale eyes; optical sensors integrate light and shadow into a hideous simulacrum of the world around you.

Or perhaps the simulacrum is perfect, and it is the world that is hideous.

Padme? Are you here? Are you all right?you try to say, but another voice speaks for you, out from the vocabulator that serves you for burned-away lips and tongue and throat.

“Padme? Are you here? Are you all right?”

I’m very sorry, Lord Vader. I’m afraid she died. It seems in your anger, you killed her.

This burns hotter than the lava had.

“No… no, it is not possible!”

You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death.

Never.

But you remember…

You remember all of it.

You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader’s blood. You remember the furnace of Vader’s fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth-And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

That it was all you. Is you.

Only you.

You did it.

You killed her.

You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself…

It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith-Because now your self is all you will ever have.

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end, you do not even want to.

In the end, the shadow is all you have left. Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself-And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker. Forever…
~ Matthew Stover - Revenge of the Sith ~

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Showing his face was to reveal his return to the light, his human side, and casting away his dark, robotic shell even if it meant his death. It was about creating a connection between Luke and Anakin, not Luke and Vader.



That sounds likes #### from the prequels. It wasn't about just killing the emperor, but how it was done. Luke's goal was to 'save' his father from the Dark Side. He showed Vader mercy after beating him, but refused to destroy him, and his punishment was feeling the wrath of the Emperor. He was willing to die rather than kill his father and turn to the Dark Side and that sacrifice is what turned Vader.

It was really necessary for Luke to have that moment of fury where he was tipping towards the Dark Side.

Vader had it when he attacked his wife and then instead of seeing if she was ok, he went after Obi-Wan.

Vader was helpless, Luke was at the cross roads, he could take the same path as his father, and burn forever, or he could show compassion and mercy.

Having a two on one scene against Palpatine would have made no sense, unless Luke fell to the Darkside and they killed the Emperor to rule the galaxy.

(Wait that would be a cool story line )

Vader didn't really turn away from the Dark Side until Palpatine was halfway through killing his son and Vaders feelings of love and compassion for his son woke up.

Remember Palpatine was frying his kid and Vader like a sad slave went and stood beside his master.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

jammies straight up says he doesn't like Star Wars. Why would he even go see this then?

It garnered generally positive reviews from people whose opinion I respect, if ended up disagreeing with. Only close-minded people don't try something to see if maybe they are wrong, or if their tastes have evolved (or devolved!).

That being said, despite the flaws with the first two films, they are watchable because of Vader and Han Solo, two great characters. When the cutesy robot is the best new character in your movie, you've gone wrong somewhere. The main actors in this film were uniformly terrible and gave their characters all the emotional impact of a soiled hankie - other than Harrison Ford, who was left over from 30 years ago, and who even in "let's mail this one in!" mode was infinitely better than his co-stars. How pathetic is that?

Personally I believe if this movie wasn't an episode in an already established and beloved franchise, I would be spouting the majority opinion, that opinion being that it has competent special effects and nothing much else going for it. I don't say this out of some gleeful desire to "ruin" the movie for people, either. Who cares what I think, other than me - but the idea is to discuss the movie, not just to fall down in awe before it's brilliance.

[Jason14h]

How sweet would have a 2 on 1 Vader/Luke vs Emperor light sabre battle have been?

This literally would have been the dumbest ending in movie history.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

It wasn't about just killing the emperor, but how it was done.

So Luke killing the Emperor would have risked turning from the Light, but Vader killing the Emperor was because he turned back to the light. Yes, that all makes sense now.

Anyway, what does this have to do with THIS film? I fail to see how arguing ROTJ wasn't horrible makes this movie good.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

to me with Ren more then anything else, up until he killed his father, he wasn't pure evil. He was caught in the middle being lured by the Dark Side and the Light Side.

It was interesting, my nephew got me the Sith Handbook for Christmas, it was kind of a joking gift because he knows that I'm a big Star Wars and I love the Sith. so maybe he wants me to follow the dark path.

But when you read it it really high lights some interesting things. We always hear that the Dark Side and the Sith were evil. But the Sith look at it more pragmatically as the term evil is a term employed by the weak to justify not freeing themselves.

for the Sith, the Dark Side is all about breaking the chains that stop you from fulfilling your destiny and reaching your potential, and controlling your world.

those chains, are things like family, friends, compassion, mercy, attachment to mundane possessions.

By sacrificing those things, you break those chains and your power grows.

With Kylo in this movie he was still very much chained. He was trying to be like his Grandfather without making the sacrifices that his grandfather made in the pusuit of power and control.

What was tougher for Anakin was that a lot of sacrifices were forced on him. the death of his mother, the perceived betrayal by the Jedi, even the death of his wife. Those chains that kept him from fully immersing in the Dark Side were snapped and removed by outside sources, mostly by people like the Jedi, and by Palpatine.

With Kylo, he was still lured by the Light Side, he still had love for his family. So yes when he put on the mask he felt for the most part that he was powerful and in control, even though he was clearly not, when the mask came off that personal illusion of himself was shattered, and he became more insecure and indecisive.

He had to finally make his first sacrifice and he wasn't sure that he wanted to. but he had come to that fork in the road that the force presents.

show mercy compassion love, spare yourself and your family pain and go down the light side. Or make that sacrifice, snap that first chain that's holding you down, kill the one you love. Kylo weighed the choices down and clearly made the decision for personal power and reaching for his destiny and killed his father. Now as they say he is going down the Dark Path and its going to dominate his destiny. They even made the point of marking him or scaring him, I doubt that outside of a key scene similar to Anakin being put in the suit, or the helmet coming down to cover Vader that we will see Kylo outside of his mask. I would also bet that after his hip got blown out that he is going to be wearing a new suit.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Reven look that they designed for him, but I expect to see a more intimidating look to go with his commitment to the darkside of the force and following his destiny to finish what his Grandfather had started.

Now the whole ROTJ thing.

I get the saying that removing the mask of Vader was to show the high price of the Dark Side and the lie that it represents, but I've always felt that was the suits job. For Anakin to fully become Vader, the Dark Side took everything from him and he was trapped in a suit that kept him alive.

I've always thought that the removal of the mask and reveal of his face more represented Anakin being freed from Slavery. there was never a moment that he wasn't a slave in the first 6 movies.

He was a slave as a child.
He was indentured to the Jedi and the Force and a slave of the prophesy
He was a Slave to Palpatine and more importantly to the Dark Side.

This was the lie of Anakin's life, the Sith believe that gaining power and sacrificing everything in pursuit of that power would snap the chains that keep you from gaining ultimate control. But the lie of the darkside is that the chains of compassion, morality, love, family etc are all broken, but they are replaced by the one chain stronger then the others, and that's the will of the Dark Side to leave you with nothing but it in your life.

Anakin removing that mask snapped that last chain and truly freed him.

[Itse]

Remember #wheresren?

Well, apparently the instruction to avoid selling Rey toys was given by Disney. The logic is truly baffling here.

http://furiousfanboys.com/2016/01/st...IR1VVrkWQK1.99

“We know what sells,” the industry insider was told. “No boy wants to be given a product with a female character on it.”

For additional context:

“Princess toy sales are in freefall. Disney can’t give away princess toys anymore,” according to the insider. And yet, the insider said, the directive is there: Maintain the sharp boy/girl product division. Marginalize girl characters in items not specifically marketed as girl-oriented.

So essentially the logic here is:

1: Our ultraconservative princess line isn't selling. We know what sells. Even though obviously we don't.
2: We shall avoid selling toys that represent the main character of one of the most succesful movies of all time.
3: Profit.

Seriously people get paid for these decisions?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by jammies

The new Vader-y guy looks like an underfed hipster, so add terrible casting to the list of sins.

Ha ha ha this is so true. His mask was kind of lame but once he took it off he goes from somewhat menacing to that unstable dude from Girls. I have nothing against Driver but IMO that is terrible casting.

[Erick Estrada]

jammies dislike for this movie is a little extreme but honestly the only reason this movie got solid reviews is because it's Star Wars, everyone badly wanted this one to be better than the last three, and most people attached to the series were going to overlook it's faults and just enjoy the ride. It's set up to a brisk pace so you don't have a lot of time to ponder some of the bad scenes, poor acting, and plot holes while in the theatre. I'm a big fan of the series but the more time that passes after seeing the movie the less I like it. I still like it like I like Terminator Genisys in that I acknowledge it's not a great movie but I love the series enough to be willfully entertained by the experience.

[Fuzz]

I kinda liked the reveal. You go from thinking, ho-hum another boring dark evil masked guy, to seeing a guy who isn't quite sure where he stands. I like that he wants to be Darth Vader, but isn't confident or powerful enough to get there yet. And everyone around him knows it.