[News] Bettman urges new arena ASAP

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Is anyone surprised by Bettman's tactics though? I guess a few people seem to be ripping him, including Nenshi, for doing exactly his job. We all know how this works. Why are we pretending like what he said is so insulting? Bettman's job is to support the team's vision and try and make the city pay for as much as possible. That's what is in the best interest of the owners. You know, the guys who selected him and keep him employed.

This. Bettman made a boilerplate speech about cities needing to spend money on arenas. He has no doubt made the same speech in 20 NHL cities in the last 22 years. That's what he's paid to do - be the public point man for the owners of the league. He's only expressing what the owners want him to. What did people expect him to say?

I want the city putting as little money as possible into whatever the Flames come up. But that doesn't mean I'm going to flip out at the guy who's job it is to the assert the interests of the owners. At least he didn't pull a Nenshi and call Calgarians a bunch of ignorant yokels and then spend the rest of the day in a twitter spat with a reporter.

[DJones]

Edit; mikephoen said it better and before me haha

Carry on.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

The CRL will be needed regardless of who develops the area, just like it was for the East Village.

The field house needs to be funded regardless of it's inclusion in this project or not.

Creosote cleanup needs to happen even if the site is never developed.

Bow Trail realignment also needs to happen if that area is ever going to be utilized to it's full potential.

The Ticket Tax money is a loan, that the city can charge interest on.

So basically all of your 1B is getting spent regardless of CalgaryNEXT happening or not happening.

Solid Post

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Nenshi has the maturity of a 13 year old girl. Instead of actually providing leadership on this issue he bows out and snipes from the sidelines on twitter. He is a a mean girl, not a mayor.

Do you have any criticisms of the Flames, Ken King, etc. regarding this issue?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

But unfortunately in the States and Canada, too many cities have handed hundreds of millions of dollars to sports teams to build new arenas/stadiums and subsidised them in other ways.

So why would our owners sit there and think they should pay the whole costs? Never going to happen, no matter how much money they have.

Leverage. Namely, the Flames have none. It's mostly the NFL that does this, and that's mostly because they have the Los Angeles hammer. And that will now be gone shortly and will leave the NFL to rely on the upcoming vacant St. Louis Market or maybe San Antonio, but neither of those is LA as a threat. So you'll see a lot less of this for NFL teams moving forward. LA is a meaningful threat for moving. San Antonio? Pfft.

Quebec City is out now with expansion, Toronto 2 is highly unlikely to ever happen. Other than those? Is moving to KC a really threat? What are the Flames going to do if the city says $0? Moving? Never happening. That devalues the franchise, possible by a couple hundred million. Sell the team? Sure but for far less than market since buyers know they're looking to unload. Or, of course, pay for the arena themselves. So no matter what they are going to be out a lot of money. But only Calgary is a top market for them long term.

The city is not at their mercy, nor is there a viable threat out there better than Calgary for a NHL team. They shouldn't feel pressured to cave at all.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Do you have any criticisms of the Flames, Ken King, etc. regarding this issue?

I know you weren't directing this at me but I have distaste for pretty much everyone in this situation. My power rankings would be:

Ken King

Nenshi
Bettman


Flames Ownership


Ken King has been horrible but Nenshi needs to get called out for the way he's been carrying himself.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I think that is precisely what they will do in the end. What's unfortunate is that the City will never get a new football stadium and it will likely mean the eventual end of the Stampeders down the road because no one under the age of 35 gives a crap about the Stamps and that's not going to change if they continue to play in the dump they currently play in.

How is a fancy new stadium going to attract under-35's.

All the football fans I know under-35 are NFL fans and won't give the CFL the time of day. A fancy new stadium will not change the fact that the NFL is largely considered a better product with way better viewing and marketing options.

If the CFL is in such a dire state, then nobody should be loaning them money for a stadium anytime soon!

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

You need to post more about your disdain for bike-lane.

Your right. I really do.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Cappy

How is a fancy new stadium going to attract under-35's.

All the football fans I know under-35 are NFL fans and won't give the CFL the time of day. A fancy new stadium will not change the fact that the NFL is largely considered a better product with way better viewing and marketing options.

If the CFL is in such a dire state, then nobody should be loaning them money for a stadium anytime soon!

I would probably actually go to a CFL game if it was in a dome. I can't stand sitting on a hard, cold plastic seat only to leave the game with hemroids.

[CaptainCrunch]

The way I look at it

If the city is going to provide the land and the cleanup or the province is going to provide the cleanup that's fine. If the field house and stadium is going to cost 900 million denaros then that's fine too, by my understanding the city was looking at spending $200 million on a necessary field house.

the owners should be able to find a way to come up with at least $500 million dollars whether through financing or opening up their ownership group for additional funds.

If there's a combination of provincial, federal and municiple funds that can be made up through a long term loan on a ticket tax that can be paid back over 20 or 30 or 50 years, this can be done.

If we get 688000 tickets per year and do a 50 year ticket tax which is 34440000 tickets, your looking at about $6 bucks per ticket. You could even add an additional $1.00 to that for the city as a good faith profit.

The big hedge mark is, how much are the owners willing to spend of their own money, and how much would another city be willing to sweeten the pot for a move.

Now I honestly doubt that Bettman would allow a move of a Canadian Franchise at this point, and one that is making a profit, though with the dollar drop that could change in a hurry.

Now what I didn't add to my calculations would be Stampeder tickets.

[fotiou22]

What some of you mistake for Nenshi's arrogance is a leader standing up for Calgarians.
The timbre of Nenshi's response is proportionate to the way Bettman and King are trying to manipulate this public discussion. Bettman and King can't answer simple questions about their own project.

The fact that Bettman can't give David Gray a straight answer in this interview—not even a shred of concrete information—says everything about this proposal. It gets especially slippery at 6:00 into the clip.



http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2681732665/

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I caught Duha on Fan960, and have to say it was a rare time he left me mystified. The guy is as logical a person as you can get, but sometimes (last being went Sutter final days as GM) he goes off his proven and consistent even keel path.

Basically said that despite the multiple studies out there that show stadiums to be a imprudent use of city dollars you couldn't argue with the results of an area like LA Live. He continued that they took a rubble area of the city and made it amazing. So he continued with why Calgary should really be embracing this thing. Went full science vs. anicdote.

I was thinking, who still says LA Live is of net benefit to LA? Been to Compton or Inglewood. Have you asked the kids if LA Live is of benefit to them seeing as they probably are too poor to ever afford a ticket? Or could the funds have gone to small recreation centres to get the kids off the street?

I love the LA Live anecdotes, as if they couldn't find another stadium project with success. No mention that it is in one of the largest NA cities with a massive demand for entertainment venues and a serious case of urban sprawl. Just because it worked in LA, doesnt mean it can work in Calgary... or the 50 other cities with new stadiums in the past 20 years.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Leverage. Namely, the Flames have none. It's mostly the NFL that does this, and that's mostly because they have the Los Angeles hammer. And that will now be gone shortly and will leave the NFL to rely on the upcoming vacant St. Louis Market or maybe San Antonio, but neither of those is LA as a threat. So you'll see a lot less of this for NFL teams moving forward. LA is a meaningful threat for moving. San Antonio? Pfft.

Quebec City is out now with expansion, Toronto 2 is highly unlikely to ever happen. Other than those? Is moving to KC a really threat? What are the Flames going to do if the city says $0? Moving? Never happening. That devalues the franchise, possible by a couple hundred million. Sell the team? Sure but for far less than market since buyers know they're looking to unload. Or, of course, pay for the arena themselves. So no matter what they are going to be out a lot of money. But only Calgary is a top market for them long term.

The city is not at their mercy, nor is there a viable threat out there better than Calgary for a NHL team. They shouldn't feel pressured to cave at all.

NFL is looking to expand to London and Toronto. San Diego is going to regret losing their team if it happens.

Quebec, Hamilton, Seattle are all options assuming Vegas is already confirmed. There will always be somewhere to move. GTA doesn't seem to crazy an idea to me, especially if it was beneficially to the league to have that extra leverage.

A lack of an arena won't hurt the value of the Flames brand. That's not going with the team when they get sold.

There is always leverage.

[Benched]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Hiding in plain sight in this whole debate is the fact that the Flames could simply just build their own arena. They have the financial means to do so.

The alternative isn't a billion public dollars or no arena. An alternative is much much less public dollars, a more manageable development that fits with the city's greater community development plan and an arena paid for by, you know, the people who will reap the largest share of the benefits.

this is what slays me.

need a new arena? build one. they're trying to cram the new stadium in there too, and then we get this 'half fieldhouse' thing (which was going to be paid for anyway!....but isn't on any budget! so again, pipedream/to-do list) and we get this massively bloated project.

build a new arena, near the saddledome on land ready for use today. leave the clean up to the city as it's clear it's on the 'we'll get to that eventually' list. East village can get saturated and then we'll look at west village. The road ways there suck, but again, unless the province has allocated money to help fix it, it's just a 'this should be done' project like 1000 others on the list.


'but a new mega sports complex and commercials area would be so awesome! all the REAL cities have them!' -this...is not sufficient reasoning to build a billion dollar project. This line of thinking is how people get themselves into debt personally. It's not acceptable in the public for a bigger pricetag.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Well, on the bright side Bettman did get people talking about it again. As loathed as the guy is he at least made some headlines on a topic that had basically disappeared.

King seems to have gone into hiding after his little powerpoint presentation.. I just hope there isn't a rift between King and Nenshi that can't be overcome.

I tend to believe that the people that loath Bettman are the lesser educated fans of the NHL. The guy hasn't been perfect as a major role of being a commissioner of a professional sports league is to take the bullets for the owners but I firmly believe Bettman deserves credit for the prosperity of Canadian teams today. Without that salary cap there would be no team in Winnipeg.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Locke

Ever want to bid for Olympics or any other major events? If that asset is 100% privately controlled they're going to tell you where to shove it.

Same thing goes anything else, especially if it involves cooperation.

Because private ownership in Vancouver really affected the viability of an olympic bid?

Because the ACC and SkyDome being privately owned has been the major impetus for all of Toronto's failed bids?

give me a break.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by DJones

Edit; mikephoen said it better and before me haha

Carry on.

Actually you should have kept it because that sounds like a better idea then CalgaryNEXT.

Even at the same site. Nobody really thinks that the creosote doesn't eventually need to be cleaned up but if the Flames were willing to scale back to an CS&E owned and operated arena (For reference he originally wrote about the Flames building an arena on their own with a city loan) it would provide an anchor tenant for the CRL zone. The city would get three revenue sources out of what you originally wrote down (land sale for the arena, property tax from the facility, interest from the city loan).

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The fieldhouse cost 180 million to build. All by the city with the I Indiana Pacers as tenants.

Lucas Oil Stadium cost 700 million to build with the city 600 millio and the Colts 100 million. City raised food, beer and hotel taxes. Also a 2% ticket tax. Also sold Colts license plates and Lucas Oil naming is 120 million over 20 years.

It may sound steep but that land was nothing before. It revitaluzed downtown. In America there are more big events to host. NCAA tounament games., NCAA Big 10 Championship plus Pacers and Colts games.

It also was not done all in one shot. Fieldhouse in 1999 and stadium 10 years later.

That is the grossest arena deal for any taxpayer I have ever seen. There is no way in H E double hockey sticks I would ever consider that a wind.

The City of Indianapolis could have revitalized downtown in several different ways with the 800 million they spent!

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by New Era

But the one thing I do notice when I get back is Calgary still has the small city problems and the small city thinking. I've been gone for nearly two decades and many of the problems still plague the city. When I left a few of the big issues were air port expansion, getting the ring road done over the Weasel Head, and dealing with the creosote problems at the bus terminal lands. 20 years later, same problems exist. Why? Small city thinking.

Why don't you tell us how "small city thinking" differs from "big city thinking," instead of just telling us that it's different?

Originally Posted by New Era

Frankly, this whole mess just needs the adults to come to the table and strike a bargain. This could be so simple if it were not for small town politics and posturing. The Flames have the money to build the majority of the project. <snip> The whole problem here is figuring out how to finance the project in the most feasible manner and sharing costs so everyone is happy in the long run. To me the simplest solution is for the city to commit the land for the project and money for the field house. The city works with the province for the infrastructure improvements, and the site remediation cost is recovered from the previous owner. <snip> The city would get what it wants, the Flames get what they want, and everyone walks away happy.

For such a worldly, experienced (i.e. "old"), big-city person, you sure seem to have a naive view of how billion-dollar conflicts get resolved. If you want to hear another person speaking this way, listen to Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones...and HE became DARTH VADER!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm not OK with the CGYNext proposal. But they are not asking for $1 billion from the city.

They aren't asking that much, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up costing the city that. The cleanup will go over budget. Then there are road realignments, utility work etc. The Crowchild mess is going to be brought into it...Now some of that is work that is going to need to be done anyway, but it makes this whole area a money priority vacuum for the next decade. Which means there won't be money for other needs (and wants).