[PGT] Red Wings beat Flames 4-2

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Amazing how Detroit manages to defy the draft odds and keep a competive team without any top 15 picks. They look as strong as ever just when people were ready to count them out in the last couple years.

The main reason why they have stayed great is they draft skill throughout the draft even if the player is crap in many areas. If they fix those problems you have a good player in the NHL.

That's why I dislike drafting guys like Kanzig and Bruce just because "size". Give me a skilled shorter player like Mangiapane any day of the week.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The main reason why they have stayed great is they draft skill throughout the draft even if the player is crap in many areas. If they fix those problems you have a good player in the NHL.

That's why I dislike drafting guys like Kanzig and Bruce just because "size". Give me a skilled shorter player like Mangiapane any day of the week.

Aaaaammmeeeennnn. Couple of wasted picks IMO

[browna]

Season low for TOI for Bennett tonight. That said, he lead the team in hits with 6.

How Backlund gets almost double the minutes, and over 2 minutes of PP time (Sam had 5 seconds of PP time) is beyond me. Bennett should be on that second PP unit.

Don't say faceoffs, as Backlund was 35%, and had an ultra lazy penalty to boot, in addition to his usual soft style. Colborne, a -2 and had a noticeably weak game, had more ice than Bennett.

Team needs Bouma back, just so the roster has a little bit more competition.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The main reason why they have stayed great is they draft skill throughout the draft even if the player is crap in many areas. If they fix those problems you have a good player in the NHL.

That's why I dislike drafting guys like Kanzig and Bruce just because "size". Give me a skilled shorter player like Mangiapane any day of the week]

2 players that come to mind, you may have heard of them: Tj Brodie and Johnny Gaudreau. Basically proves your theory.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by browna

Season low for TOI for Bennett tonight. That said, he lead the team in hits with 6.

How Backlund gets almost double the minutes, and over 2 minutes of PP time (Sam had 5 seconds of PP time) is beyond me. Bennett should be on that second PP unit.

Don't say faceoffs, as Backlund was 35%, and had an ultra lazy penalty to boot, in addition to his usual soft style. Colborne, a -2 and had a noticeably weak game, had more ice than Bennett.

Team needs Bouma back, just so the roster has a little bit more competition.

Bennett was one of our best forwards tonight. Those stats are infuriating.

[Igster]

I don't get what Hartley is doing with Bennett. Not a fan at all. His one rush was awesome to watch. The kid plays hard. He doesn't always make the right play, but I could point that out on just about any Flame tonight. Not sure what Bob's thinking is here, but I think he's wrong, whatever it is.

[MrMastodonFarm]

The idea that the Wings don't also draft for size occasionally is ludicrous. You'll have to describe what overwhelming skill 2015 5th rounder Chase Pearson has instead of his good big body game. Detroit really doesn't approach the draft any different than most teams, a mixed bag of prospects, don't get hyper focused on any one quality etc, but what they do do is have patience and develop prospects well.

Michael Ferland had sad offensive numbers in his draft year, the Flames didn't focus on that, they saw a big guy with holes who they hoped could develop into something more. Too bad the Lightning picked 165 pound Jimmy Mullen the previous round!

Mix it up, not always x over y. Got a Keenan Kanzig, take a John Gilmore. Have a Riley Bruce, takes a Andrew Mangiapane.

[robbie111]

Originally Posted by browna

Season low for TOI for Bennett tonight. That said, he lead the team in hits with 6.

How Backlund gets almost double the minutes, and over 2 minutes of PP time (Sam had 5 seconds of PP time) is beyond me. Bennett should be on that second PP unit.

Don't say faceoffs, as Backlund was 35%, and had an ultra lazy penalty to boot, in addition to his usual soft style. Colborne, a -2 and had a noticeably weak game, had more ice than Bennett.

Team needs Bouma back, just so the roster has a little bit more competition.

Bennett and Granlund were even for the game and there line was dominant in games where Hartley was giving them icetime. Heck Granlund was the 2nd best faceoff guy tonight at 40% (Stajan was at 50%) while Monahan was at 16%. That line has been dangerous and spent a lot of time creating chances in the offensive zone and yet Hartley staples them to the bench.

They both should be on the 2nd PP unit and Raymond and Backlund should be removed from the 2nd unit. I'd like to see the 2nd unit be Bennett-Granlund-Ferland. Try it as a line first and give them 2nd line icetime.

[Samonadreau]

^ Good points. They still seem to draft better than most and have an eye for diamonds in the rough, but they are the best prospect development organization in hockey.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Monahan had a rough night.

The Ferland love extended since the Vancouver series, and including a recent power play with different feel but same results is lovely, but he has not been a difference maker or noticeable consistently enough.

Detroit closed on Gaudreau well all night. Gave him some room at the blue line where he skated between three guys who closed in and he mishandled it. Multiple times.

Bennett needs to figure out that since moves he used in junior no longer work, he needs a deeper toolkit

I wish the real Jiri Hudler would stand up

All this said, with all of the flaws to iron out, the team lost a second close one and hit a ton of iron, and outside of half the second, gave the Wings all they could handle.

This is a team now barely losing 2 games they could win after winning 7. Stay the course.

[GranteedEV]

just watched the game

Good:
Micheal Ferland was excellent all night.
Penalty Kill was the best I've seen it since around February.
5 on 4 looked crisp.

Bad:
Other than a stretch in the 1st period, that was mostly atrocious 5 on 5 play until the Red Wings started sitting back. At some point Hartley has to put Bennett back at centre and give him some ice time as he's one of your only guys who can trigger a breakout from the defensive zone with his passing and skating.

It's about time we get Wideman-Hamilton out there as a pairing.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The idea that the Wings don't also draft for size occasionally is ludicrous. You'll have to describe what overwhelming skill 2015 5th rounder Chase Pearson has instead of his good big body game. Detroit really doesn't approach the draft any different than most teams, a mixed bag of prospects, don't get hyper focused on any one quality etc, but what they do do is have patience and develop prospects well.

Michael Ferland had sad offensive numbers in his draft year, the Flames didn't focus on that, they saw a big guy with holes who they hoped could develop into something more. Too bad the Lightning picked 165 pound Jimmy Mullen the previous round!

Mix it up, not always x over y. Got a Keenan Kanzig, take a John Gilmore. Have a Riley Bruce, takes a Andrew Mangiapane.

True, it's not an always do this situation, but they do tend to take more "risky" picks than everyone else. Some of them turn out like Nyquist and Tatar, but they also have a whole host of guys that are coming through like Athanasiou, Pulkkinen, Tvrdon, Frk as well as a pair of guys that are now in Dallas' org Mattias Janmark and Mattias Backman and Calle Jarnkrok who is in Nashville.

If a couple of the four current AHL guys turn into legit guys at the NHL level, they basically have their top 9 set for the next decade.

The Flames have tried to go more on the skill route since 2011 with Baertschi, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gaudreau, Janko, Kulak, Culkin, Monahan, Poirier, Klimchuk, Roy, Rafikov, Gilmour, Bennett, Hickey, Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane and Karnaukhov. Not everyone panned out as planned (Sven + Roy for now)

It is also notable that since they went for mostly "skill" picks (19/28 skilled skater picks) that they have been extremely successful in transitioning players into the NHL. 9 have made the NHL already in some aspect and most of those that haven't are on an upward trajectory. 0/9 of the limited upside guys have played a game with only Smith, Carroll and Harrison looking to have any NHL potential, with Harrison being a long shot.

When you draft for size, you get Hunter Smith, which is a decent pick. He may become a solid 3rd/4th line winger for the Flames in a few seasons. Unfortunately, the very next selection in the draft was an average sized skill defenseman Brandon Montour. He is a PPG player in the AHL this season as a D-man and is looking like he'll be a top 4 D-man in the NHL with the potential to be a top pairing guy.

[Samonadreau]

Having Frolik out of the Lineup hurts.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I have to say, I agreed with Hartley reducing Bennett's ice time. He's been invisible for several games in a row now. Tonight he was completely ineffective because he doesn't use his teammates very well and instead tries to stick handle through 4 defenders. Going 1 on 4 doesn't work very often, even if you are highly skilled as Bennett is.

Monahan with a brutal game, mostly defensively, but also on face-offs. Perhaps he's a little tired but those plays indicated mental fatigue more than anything.

Colborne as well has been pretty poor of late. Not sure we should expect a whole lot more from him though.

Jones has to be hurting still. Didn't see him much in that game.

The entire defense was poor at boxing out in front of the net, allowing the Wings to create far too much traffic for Ramo to deal with.

The good news: Brodie looked really good yet again. Backlund actually tried to create some offense for once. Ramo made some really good saves and kept the team in it. Ferland looked really smart on the power play: didn't panic and distributed the puck well, then went to the front of the net. We scored a power play goal too! Wideman finally got his first of the year.

One game left before the christmas break. Make it count!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Monahan had a rough night.

The Ferland love extended since the Vancouver series, and including a recent power play with different feel but same results is lovely, but he has not been a difference maker or noticeable consistently enough.

Detroit closed on Gaudreau well all night. Gave him some room at the blue line where he skated between three guys who closed in and he mishandled it. Multiple times.

Bennett needs to figure out that since moves he used in junior no longer work, he needs a deeper toolkit

I wish the real Jiri Hudler would stand up

All this said, with all of the flaws to iron out, the team lost a second close one and hit a ton of iron, and outside of half the second, gave the Wings all they could handle.

This is a team now barely losing 2 games they could win after winning 7. Stay the course.

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I have to say, I agreed with Hartley reducing Bennett's ice time. He's been invisible for several games in a row now. Tonight he was completely ineffective because he doesn't use his teammates very well and instead tries to stick handle through 4 defenders. Going 1 on 4 doesn't work very often, even if you are highly skilled as Bennett is.

Monahan with a brutal game, mostly defensively, but also on face-offs. Perhaps he's a little tired but those plays indicated mental fatigue more than anything.

Colborne as well has been pretty poor of late. Not sure we should expect a whole lot more from him though.

Jones has to be hurting still. Didn't see him much in that game.

The entire defense was poor at boxing out in front of the net, allowing the Wings to create far too much traffic for Ramo to deal with.

The good news: Brodie looked really good yet again. Backlund actually tried to create some offense for once. Ramo made some really good saves and kept the team in it. Ferland looked really smart on the power play: didn't panic and distributed the puck well, then went to the front of the net. We scored a power play goal too! Wideman finally got his first of the year.

One game left before the christmas break. Make it count!

I agree with both of you (though I don't think Bennett was invisible) but I completely disagree with Hartley cutting his ice-time.

Bennett needs to play. He needs minutes to grow his confidence and expand his game to the NHL level.

When you get one or two shifts a period, you're going to try to do too much and you're going to fall back to your 'go to' move. This is exactly what's happening and is the opposite of what NEEDS to happen.

Bennett should be getting a regular shift. Just like what Burke said about Monahan - if you're here, you should be getting 15 minutes a night.

And it's not like the effort isn't there. Clearly Bennett is doing everything he can - he led the team in hits yesterday. He wants to play as badly as anyone.

What he needs is ice-time so that he can relax and trust his skills and hockey sense.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

True, it's not an always do this situation, but they do tend to take more "risky" picks than everyone else. Some of them turn out like Nyquist and Tatar, but they also have a whole host of guys that are coming through like Athanasiou, Pulkkinen, Tvrdon, Frk as well as a pair of guys that are now in Dallas' org Mattias Janmark and Mattias Backman and Calle Jarnkrok who is in Nashville.

If a couple of the four current AHL guys turn into legit guys at the NHL level, they basically have their top 9 set for the next decade.

The Flames have tried to go more on the skill route since 2011 with Baertschi, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gaudreau, Janko, Kulak, Culkin, Monahan, Poirier, Klimchuk, Roy, Rafikov, Gilmour, Bennett, Hickey, Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane and Karnaukhov. Not everyone panned out as planned (Sven + Roy for now)

It is also notable that since they went for mostly "skill" picks (19/28 skilled skater picks) that they have been extremely successful in transitioning players into the NHL. 9 have made the NHL already in some aspect and most of those that haven't are on an upward trajectory. 0/9 of the limited upside guys have played a game with only Smith, Carroll and Harrison looking to have any NHL potential, with Harrison being a long shot.

When you draft for size, you get Hunter Smith, which is a decent pick. He may become a solid 3rd/4th line winger for the Flames in a few seasons. Unfortunately, the very next selection in the draft was an average sized skill defenseman Brandon Montour. He is a PPG player in the AHL this season as a D-man and is looking like he'll be a top 4 D-man in the NHL with the potential to be a top pairing guy.

No disrespect, but what a load of BS.

The whole myth around the Wings and just drafting for skill is such a joke. I don't disagree with you that on the skill over size debate but teams will and still should lean towards size on some picks. It's awesome Brandon Montour is off to a rip roaring start but if Hunter Smith pans out he brings an element few can to the NHL, a massive big body presence and game. Don't find anyone with Hunter's size often so you go for that long term hopeful home run.

On what planet was Tomas Tatar a risky pick? He had a great World Juniors in 2009 leading up to his draft and was a consensus 2nd round pick by most. He was maybe undersized a tad on draft day, 5'11 176 pounds but a burger at Carls JR would have bumped that weight up.

Tatar was a consensus 2nd round pick, taken in the second round. Wasn't much risk in that pick but the Wings put him in the AHL right away and despite a cup of coffee or two in the NHL he spent four seasons in the AHL before getting his full time spot.

Patience and development for the Wings, not the mythical always draft for skill bullcrap people keep spouting.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Bennett needs to play. He needs minutes to grow his confidence and expand his game to the NHL level.

When you get one or two shifts a period, you're going to try to do too much and you're going to fall back to your 'go to' move. This is exactly what's happening and is the opposite of what NEEDS to happen.

Bennett should be getting a regular shift. Just like what Burke said about Monahan - if you're here, you should be getting 15 minutes a night.

And it's not like the effort isn't there. Clearly Bennett is doing everything he can - he led the team in hits yesterday. He wants to play as badly as anyone.

What he needs is ice-time so that he can relax and trust his skills and hockey sense.

He also should be playing at Centre.

Why the hell is Granlund getting prioritized at centre? That makes zero sense. Developing Bennett as a winger is bad for this organization. You win on the backs of great centre depth, not LW depth.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

True, it's not an always do this situation, but they do tend to take more "risky" picks than everyone else. Some of them turn out like Nyquist and Tatar, but they also have a whole host of guys that are coming through like Athanasiou, Pulkkinen, Tvrdon, Frk as well as a pair of guys that are now in Dallas' org Mattias Janmark and Mattias Backman and Calle Jarnkrok who is in Nashville.

If a couple of the four current AHL guys turn into legit guys at the NHL level, they basically have their top 9 set for the next decade.

The Flames have tried to go more on the skill route since 2011 with Baertschi, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gaudreau, Janko, Kulak, Culkin, Monahan, Poirier, Klimchuk, Roy, Rafikov, Gilmour, Bennett, Hickey, Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane and Karnaukhov. Not everyone panned out as planned (Sven + Roy for now)

It is also notable that since they went for mostly "skill" picks (19/28 skilled skater picks) that they have been extremely successful in transitioning players into the NHL. 9 have made the NHL already in some aspect and most of those that haven't are on an upward trajectory. 0/9 of the limited upside guys have played a game with only Smith, Carroll and Harrison looking to have any NHL potential, with Harrison being a long shot.

When you draft for size, you get Hunter Smith, which is a decent pick. He may become a solid 3rd/4th line winger for the Flames in a few seasons. Unfortunately, the very next selection in the draft was an average sized skill defenseman Brandon Montour. He is a PPG player in the AHL this season as a D-man and is looking like he'll be a top 4 D-man in the NHL with the potential to be a top pairing guy.

It's easy to use Wings as an example and say just pick skill. But when you look at the Flames right now, what are people asking for? A shutdown dman and a big RWer, you're not going to get either of those with a skilled player pick.

You need to mix it up. Detroit can get away with it due to having a long stable environment (Yzerman and Co then Datsyuk era). Look up north, they pick skilled guys and look how that's turned out so far, no compete.

How much skill does Ferland have? apprently not enough to be a top 6 guy in Calgary with the way he's being used but he became a fan favorite. So is Gaudreau.

To say ignore players with size is not sensible either. You can't teach size but you can teach some of the other basic skills. I'm not defending Flames drafting but there're only 20 active spots on an NHL team. Teams draft 7 players a year plus couple UFA signings. There are number of guys who won't get an opportunity. You'll never really know what you had in them.

In coming years I would say the Flames have a better chance at a cup then the Wings do. Nyquist/Tatar are decent players but they're not going to be Datsyuks/Zetterbergs. Larkin is likely their best forward in coming years. Wings D has really lacked since Lidstrom left, Kronwall is getting old and some decent players behind him but nothing top pair coming.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

To say ignore players with size is not sensible either. You can't teach size but you can teach some of the other basic skills. I'm not defending Flames drafting but there're only 20 active spots on an NHL team. Teams draft 7 players a year plus couple UFA signings. There are number of guys who won't get an opportunity. You'll never really know what you had in them.

I know it sounds contrary to my previous post, but I want the Flames to draft for size especially with the first and second round pick. With a caveat that the player they are picking is not being selected just because of their size. Brandon Hickey and Mark Jankowski are the perfect examples from recent drafts of selecting players that both have size and skill (both 6-3+). Typically though anyone who has size and a moderate amount of skill tend to go in the top 70 with few exceptions. In the 3rd-5th rounds, you can find those skilled guys with warts. Hickey was playing in a low league, Gaudreau was/is tiny, Brodie was basically a forward playing defense. Those are the rounds I'm talking about specifically with throwing the dice for skill picks.

In the first round I tend to lean towards first, skill. If the group of players is close together in that department, size. If they are close in that department, then position. If you have tons of defensemen in the system and have zero RW and you have a tie between a D-man and a RW, go for the RW if the rest of the details are close. It all depends on what is available.

If you have a wide base of talented players, you can use those guys or other assets in trades to address the other areas of concern. Last year for example the Flames used three of their assets (in this case draft picks) to acquire a 6-5 D-man. If the Flames were not as deep throughout the organization, they may not have spared the assets to pick up Hamilton.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

He also should be playing at Centre.

Why the hell is Granlund getting prioritized at centre? That makes zero sense. Developing Bennett as a winger is bad for this organization. You win on the backs of great centre depth, not LW depth.

Bennett doesn't seem to be much of a passer (by that I mean he tries to dangle instead of passing, not that he's bad at passing). He has a guy in Granlund who has a great shot, and Hudler is a known finisher as well. I think Bennett has a few junior habits he still needs to shed.

That, plus a need to work on the defensive side of the game is likely why he's being used at wing.

Anyway, the team has decent young centre depth, with a bunch of guys on the farm who can play centre, plus Jankowski. No, they aren't all top 6 guys, but Jankowski might be. If Granlund gets to be good at faceoffs, he's a decent 3, and you also have Arnold, Grant, Shore, etc. who could play 4th line C. Fitting Bennett in at wing is more of a luxury of having lots of centres and not having to use a rookie in the middle IMO.