Just going to leave this here. Depressing, but necessary.
I would question this because he speaks in absolutes. When I hear someone speak from a stance of absolute certainty I tend to stop listening pretty quickly. The issue at hand is so complex it is nearly impossible to completely understand from afar, you'd have to be directly a witness to so many events to truly say the reality of the situation is such a way.
If we're being logical here the only thing we can truly say for sure is we don't really know everything, not that he doesn't make good points but the perspective from which he speaks is so absolute that a person speaking in such a tense is likely to make multiple logical errors. It's likely that much of what he says is true along with other unforeseen factors having a large impact on the outcome of the situation.
I refuse to believe they are fighting for religion. I think the soldiers believe that but the leaders use it as a way to justify what they're doing and make it seem okay for people. What kind of deranged moron would think that kind of behaviour is remotly acceptable? The thing that annoys me most is those pukes aren't even man enough to look their enemies in the eye when they kill them. They blindfold them and shoot them from behind like filthy gutless cowards. I'm not trying to say that if they looked the people in the eyes when they shot them it would be better, it wouldn't. That's just another example of the sheer cowardice of those sick pigs.
I truly wish there was a way we could get all the innocent people out of there and just blow that part of the world off the map. Unfortunately we can't kill innocent people as that is unacceptable and would be stooping to their level.
Another thing I wish was possible would be to get a hold of one of those pricks alone with no weapons and lay a beat down on them. I wouldn't kill them. They want that.
I hate those "people". It's sickening to think of them as people to be honest with you. They make me want to enlist in the military myself and go take care of some business over there.
I can't even begin to imagine how it must feel for the real Muslims who just want to live in peace but are grouped in with those clowns.
I would question this because he speaks in absolutes. When I hear someone speak from a stance of absolute certainty I tend to stop listening pretty quickly. The issue at hand is so complex it is nearly impossible to completely understand from afar, you'd have to be directly a witness to so many events to truly say the reality of the situation is such a way.
If we're being logical here the only thing we can truly say for sure is we don't really know everything, not that he doesn't make good points but the perspective from which he speaks is so absolute that a person speaking in such a tense is likely to make multiple logical errors. It's likely that much of what he says is true along with other unforeseen factors having a large impact on the outcome of the situation.
You'll have to elaborate. I listened to it again, and could not pick up any of what you say here in Harris' comments. What parts are you referring to?
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I refuse to believe they are fighting for religion. I think the soldiers believe that but the leaders use it as a way to justify what they're doing and make it seem okay for people. What kind of deranged moron would think that kind of behaviour is remotly acceptable? The thing that annoys me most is those pukes aren't even man enough to look their enemies in the eye when they kill them. They blindfold them and shoot them from behind like filthy gutless cowards. I'm not trying to say that if they looked the people in the eyes when they shot them it would be better, it wouldn't. That's just another example of the sheer cowardice of those sick pigs.
They are most certainly fighting for religion, if you actually read some of the articles posted in here ISIS is trying to adhere to the most literal translation of the Quran that they can. They want the end-times to come upon us, and everything they do including the barbaric savagery is part of that and directly referenced in the Quran
In a related note, mainstream Islam is much more extreme in their views than anyone wants to admit. Just take a look at a few of the sources posted in this thread
^ ISIS has killed literally hundreds of thousands of other Muslims in the name of religion. These Muslims are their biggest targets (not 'westerners'). ISIS is wiping out other Muslims because they "reject the proper interpretation of scripture".
That is the real problem - we collectively mostly have no understanding what any of this is all about, or didn't begin to until now, myself included.
There isn't really a mainstream Islam. It's 1.6 billion people spanning the entire world and even if you're talking on a country-by-country basis, support for certain practices regarded as REQUIRED in order to be a good Muslim vary wildly. See the following sources for a taste of same:
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There isn't really a mainstream Islam. It's 1.6 billion people spanning the entire world and even if you're talking on a country-by-country basis, support for certain practices regarded as REQUIRED in order to be a good Muslim vary wildly. See the following sources for a taste of same:
But yet even in the most moderate muslim populations, their views can be pretty extreme. From the link I posted
Quote:
58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.
45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not).
12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death.
One would expect that American muslims would be among the most moderate and tolerant, yet almost half of them think blasphemy should be a criminal offense. Is it any wonder ISIS has been able to recruit so many members from western nations? If a good chunk believe that blasphemy should be a death sentence, I don't think it would take much to convince them to take up arms as a jihadi
But yet even in the most moderate muslim populations, their views can be pretty extreme.
That's true and I think is also reflected in those pew polls. I do think polling data can be a bit skewed, because people will give answers, especially on religion, that they might support in theory but wouldn't when push comes to shove. I really, really hope that's the case with some of those numbers.
However, this is why it's much more helpful to talk about specific issues rather than "Islam" as a whole. Saying "Islam has some terrible doctrines" is too vague - you're much more likely to get smart, rational people to agree with you if you instead point out specifically that "blasphemy should not be a criminal offense" or "let's not kill people for deciding to leave Islam" or "let's oppose female genital mutilation, regardless of why people are doing it".
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
That's true and I think is also reflected in those pew polls. I do think polling data can be a bit skewed, because people will give answers, especially on religion, that they might support in theory but wouldn't when push comes to shove. I really, really hope that's the case with some of those numbers.
However, this is why it's much more helpful to talk about specific issues rather than "Islam" as a whole. Saying "Islam has some terrible doctrines" is too vague - you're much more likely to get smart, rational people to agree with you if you instead point out specifically that "blasphemy should not be a criminal offense" or "let's not kill people for deciding to leave Islam" or "let's oppose female genital mutilation, regardless of why people are doing it".
I think it would also be interesting to see how those answers breakdown among age demographics. Obviously most ISIS fighters are young men, but I have hard time seeing the majority of Muslims who've grown up in a Western liberal atmosphere maintaining those stances.
I think it would also be interesting to see how those answers breakdown among age demographics. Obviously most ISIS fighters are young men, but I have hard time seeing the majority of Muslims who've grown up in a Western liberal atmosphere maintaining those stances.
I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see an age trend, just on the intuitive basis that older religious people tend to be the more conservative ones. On the other hand, though, the majority of recruits to Islamist extremist organizations tend to be second-generation; in other words they've grown up in exactly those western liberal atmospheres. Which has been referenced as a reason that fears about refugees are overstated. So the liberal atmosphere certainly doesn't seem dispositive.
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I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see an age trend, just on the intuitive basis that older religious people tend to be the more conservative ones. On the other hand, though, the majority of recruits to Islamist extremist organizations tend to be second-generation; in other words they've grown up in exactly those western liberal atmospheres. Which has been referenced as a reason that fears about refugees are overstated. So the liberal atmosphere certainly doesn't seem dispositive.
Yeah, young Muslims in the West who become radicalised tend not to come from especially conservative homes (IIRC, their parents attend Mosque less frequently than average). However, even fairly moderate young Muslims can feel profoundly alienated growing up in the West. University, for example, will be very alienating if you believe alcohol is evil and promiscuity or sex outside of marriage is an abomination. If you believe the devil is in your heart whenever you stare at the ass of a girl in yoga pants. This is a big problem in the UK, where young people are even more liberal with booze and sex than Canadians, and Muslims tend to be even more conservative. There are people who grow up in a country and simply never feel part of it.
I frankly don't understand why people move their families to countries that have dramatically different social mores than ones they hold. I think the Dutch have the right idea by showing potential immigrants photos of couples, including gay couples, kissing in public, people getting drunk at parties, and women in small bathing suits, and say "OK, this is our society. Are you cool with this? Because if you aren't, you're going to hate it here." Are people really willing to live in a place they hate, around people they feel no affinity for, if it means a better material standard of living? I guess I know the answer to that question, but I don't get it.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 11-20-2015 at 02:10 PM.
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Yeah, young Muslims in the West who become radicalised tend not to come from especially conservative homes (IIRC, their parents attend Mosque less frequently than average). However, even fairly moderate young Muslims can feel profoundly alienated growing up in the West. University, for example, will be very alienating if you believe alcohol is evil and promiscuity or sex outside of marriage is an abomination. If you believe the devil is in your heart whenever you stare at the ass of a girl in yoga pants. This is a big problem in the UK, where young people are even more liberal with booze and sex than Canadians, and Muslims tend to be even more conservative. There are people who grow up in a country and simply never feel part of it.
I frankly don't understand why people move their families to countries that have dramatically different social mores than ones they hold. I think the Dutch have the right idea by showing potential immigrants photos of couples, including gay couples, kissing in public, people getting drunk at parties, and women in small bathing suits, and say "OK, this is our society. Are you cool with this? Because if you aren't, you're going to hate it here." Are people really willing to live in a place they hate, around people they feel no affinity for, if it means a better material standard of living? I guess I know the answer to that question, but I don't get it.
I get it 100%. The answer is easy.......
Bombs are not ramdomly being dropped on any given day of the week by which ever country. Their is not a daily suicide bombing, or a mass military style shooting .
I have a buddy who had to move back to Isreal after his student visa( we keep in touch)was up who has some storys. It was only a few weeks ago they had 21 terrorist attacks in one day in the part of Jerusalem he lives in. The majority were stabbings by people associated with palistine extremists.
Its not hard to wonder why people would move to country's where they don't agree with social politics. There isn't a full out war zone throughout European and North America countries like there is in the middle east and asia minor countries.
Last edited by combustiblefuel; 11-21-2015 at 01:23 AM.
^ ISIS has killed literally hundreds of thousands of other Muslims in the name of religion. These Muslims are their biggest targets (not 'westerners'). ISIS is wiping out other Muslims because they "reject the proper interpretation of scripture".
That is the real problem - we collectively mostly have no understanding what any of this is all about, or didn't begin to until now, myself included.
Just a thought, maybe it's because westerners are not in Iraq/Syria
Give these savages 2 days in a large western city the count would be millions.
Just a thought, maybe it's because westerners are not in Iraq/Syria
Give these savages 2 days in a large western city the count would be millions.
That's a dumb thought. You're saying ISIS thinks "well..no Americans here. Lets just kill the Muslims that we are supposedly fighting in the name of Islam for"
Westerners being in Syria/Iraq is irrelevant. They claim to be doing this in the name of Islam, to create a caliphate, yet they kill the very people that would be part of their desired caliphate. They're mentally disturbed idiots who have a sick, twisted version of religion as a reason to do all of this.
That's a dumb thought. You're saying ISIS thinks "well..no Americans here. Lets just kill the Muslims that we are supposedly fighting in the name of Islam for"
Westerners being in Syria/Iraq is irrelevant. They claim to be doing this in the name of Islam, to create a caliphate, yet they kill the very people that would be part of their desired caliphate. They're mentally disturbed idiots who have a sick, twisted version of religion as a reason to do all of this.
Well they are considered mentally disturb individuals now the last Caliphate (Ottoman empire) operated along the same lines I.S.I.S is comducting themselves. It is still based on the same fundamentalist priciples of Islam the Ottoman Empire enforced. It is not a surprise in any way that they are as horrible as they are.
That's a dumb thought. You're saying ISIS thinks "well..no Americans here. Lets just kill the Muslims that we are supposedly fighting in the name of Islam for"
Westerners being in Syria/Iraq is irrelevant. They claim to be doing this in the name of Islam, to create a caliphate, yet they kill the very people that would be part of their desired caliphate. They're mentally disturbed idiots who have a sick, twisted version of religion as a reason to do all of this.
It's a sect war and a war against Assads army for them, you believe in their way or get in their way you are dead, but make no mistake, they hate christians/westerners even more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by combustiblefuel
The fear is strong in you. Do you watch Fox news much by chance?
I don't need Fox to show me Islam is a crazy religion filled with bad ideas.
Sorry to burst your bubble but when innocent people get slaughtered around the world for not believing or drawing cartoons it's not fear...it absolute disgust.
And even without the attacks on "westerners" this barbaric religion slaughters it own in public view for things like adultery,sorcery(),leaving Islam,being gay and even ripping a page out of the Qur'an.
A couple of other points:
-The Qur'an never once speaks of Allah's love for non-Muslims, but it speaks of Allah's cruelty toward and hatred of non-Muslims more than 500 times.(nice book)
-Islam teaches that non-Muslims are less than fully human. Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim.(lol,proved wrong many times)
It's simple, Islam is a religion of hate...period.
),leaving Islam,being gay and even ripping a page out of the Qur'an.