Explosion near Stadium in Paris, multiple shootings and hostage taking...

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Since I grew up in Pakistan, let me share some insights about the radicals that may not be fully understood by the people here in the West.

- Their view of who is a Muslim is very, very narrow. That's why the majority of the casualties have been Muslims. If you so much as believe in voting, you are considered a non-Muslim. They even consider organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as non-Muslims.

- The one thing they hate more than any other is countries/people in the West showing any sort of caring towards Muslims. The refugee crisis was a huge blow to isis- it showed Westerners accepting refugees and showed that the refugees were either fleeing isis or not going to them for refuge.

- Religion plays a role, but geo-politics plays a bigger one. For example, China has a over a billion non-Muslims and is close by, but you don't hear much chatter about attacking China since China does not "interfere" in the Mid-East.

- Jealousy. This factor is not mentioned much but it is pretty significant. They see the West which is relatively wealthy and successful and contrast that with the pitiful state that most Mid-East countries are in.

-Military action is the only solution. You can have the greatest leader take over in Syria but if he came through via elections they will not accept him. They will continue to target people even if the country's situation improves dramatically until their guy is recognized as the leader.

Great post. I have some general questions. I want to understand the mindset of the young Muslim man.

I assume you are Muslim and very happy to be Muslim. But if you were not happy what are your options. Can a person leave Islam? What are the ramifications? Do people often leave? Christians in North America have left their religion, there weren't many athiests 50 years ago.

Why is the 'western-born' Muslim person angry? Or more specifically, why is the 18 year old Calgary-born Muslim boy angry? I see your argument above and understand why the Middle Eastern Muslim is angry although I don't 100% buy it.

But why is the immigrant Muslim angry? Why are they joining ISIS? And if they are angry about Islam, why aren't they leaving it?

[para transit fellow]

Regarding military response, this article is interesting

http://www.straight.com/news/420321/...tern-countries

I now understand the notion, "we should be concerned by the actions of Islamic State, but not in fear"

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by HarryH93

...so they knew about these locations all along and only just started destroying them? Odd.

Or a sympathetic country with more intel than the French gave it to them?

[Knut]

Or they were more worried in the past about the number of civilian casualties there would be.

[Clarkey]

The government can scan my emails all they want if it means catching pricks like this before they do it.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by blueski

So how are they finding intact passports from attackers that blew themselves to smithereens. And if you are an attacker hell bent on blowing yourself up, why would you go out on your last night carrying a passport?

not 100% sure on France but there are countries in the EU where if you aren't a resident you need to carry your passport at all times

[T@T]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Great post. I have some general questions. I want to understand the mindset of the young Muslim man.

I assume you are Muslim and very happy to be Muslim. But if you were not happy what are your options. Can a person leave Islam? What are the ramifications? Do people often leave? Christians in North America have left their religion, there weren't many athiests 50 years ago.

Why is the 'western-born' Muslim person angry? Or more specifically, why is the 18 year old Calgary-born Muslim boy angry? I see your argument above and understand why the Middle Eastern Muslim is angry although I don't 100% buy it.

But why is the immigrant Muslim angry? Why are they joining ISIS? And if they are angry about Islam, why aren't they leaving it?

The percentage of western born Muslim kids that are angry and want to join a terrorist group is probably the same as any other Christian western kid with a troubled mind.

If the world would educate people that there is no afterlife, no paradise and no gates to heaven the world would be a safer place.

If anyone would like to argue this please start another thread.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by T@T

The percentage of western born Muslim kids that are angry and want to join a terrorist group is probably the same as any other Christian western kid with a troubled mind.

If the world would educate people that there is no afterlife, no paradise and no gates to heaven the world would be a safer place.

If anyone would like to argue this please start another thread.

That's fairly close minded of you, it's not religious ideology causing these attacks. It's political ideologies, this was motivated with some intended outcome on a political level. I 100% disagree that religious philosophy is the root cause and in fact that's incredibly dangerous as it completely ignores the socioeconomic and geopolitical factors that create such incidents.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by AcGold

That's fairly close minded of you, it's not religious ideology causing these attacks. It's political ideologies, this was motivated with some intended outcome on a political level. I 100% disagree that religious philosophy is the root cause and in fact that's incredibly dangerous as it completely ignores the socioeconomic and geopolitical factors that create such incidents.

If a man murders his neighbour, and when caught he says it's because he wanted to steal valuables from his safe, we have no difficulty taking his word for his motivations. Yet when a guy says quite plainly that he believes he is doing God's work by killing someone, no one wants to believe him.

There is never a simple explanation, and there are always multiple factors influencing a person's behaviour, certainly. But suggesting that religious belief doesn't play a role here, when the perpetrators are telling you specifically that's why they're doing what they're doing, is hopelessly deluded.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by AcGold

That's fairly close minded of you, it's not religious ideology causing these attacks. It's political ideologies, this was motivated with some intended outcome on a political level. I 100% disagree that religious philosophy is the root cause and in fact that's incredibly dangerous as it completely ignores the socioeconomic and geopolitical factors that create such incidents.

Wow, talk about being close minded.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Great post. I have some general questions. I want to understand the mindset of the young Muslim man.

I assume you are Muslim and very happy to be Muslim. But if you were not happy what are your options. Can a person leave Islam? What are the ramifications? Do people often leave? Christians in North America have left their religion, there weren't many athiests 50 years ago.

Why is the 'western-born' Muslim person angry? Or more specifically, why is the 18 year old Calgary-born Muslim boy angry? I see your argument above and understand why the Middle Eastern Muslim is angry although I don't 100% buy it.

But why is the immigrant Muslim angry? Why are they joining ISIS? And if they are angry about Islam, why aren't they leaving it?

Maybe I can shed some light on this since I knew a guy that became radicalized here in Calgary. Although he wasn't western-born, he did come to Canada from the Middle East with his family at a fairly young age (I think when he was around 9 or 10 years old).

For the most part, he was a normal Canadian guy. He was a huge Flames fan, we would go out for beers and watch all the games religiously. We were always out at the bars, chasing women, in our early 20's. So nothing was out of the ordinary by all means. The thing is, though, he always felt like an outsider. He was a great guy, but he always felt a bit inferior to some of the rest of us for some reason or another.

By our mid 20's, most of us were finishing off University, a few of us were getting married, travelling, etc., he on the other hand was stuck doing menial jobs and he kind of felt as though life was passing him by. He started getting heavily into drinking and smoking weed... pretty much just wasting his life away. After a year and a half or so of his life spiralling out of control, he turned to religion in hopes it would straighten him out... and it did, for a few months that is. He stopped drinking and smoking, became dedicated to his job, started looking into upgrading his schooling, so by all means, life was starting to look good for him. For some reason, though, he didn't think it was enough, and he started hanging out with some fairly radical muslim guys. There was a mosque that he invited me to visit here in Calgary once that had a very radical following. The imam brainwashed the patrons into thinking that this society isn't for us. That Western society is from the devil. That a true muslim must fight against these ideas and we will only have victory once the Caliphate is re-established. A lot of the guys bought this crap. A lot of them were troubled young men that felt marginalized by society (like my friend). They all felt as though they had power all of a sudden and that they have a reason to fight the society that has rejected them. I only went to one Friday prayer service at this place and it was enough for me. I lost contact with my friend shortly after this incident. I heard through some friends that he went to Syria after this, joined some "group" (possibly Al-Qaeda or an early form of ISIS).

So the TL;DR version, a lot of these guys feel marginalized by society and want to lash out. They're not much different than any other mass murderers.

[AcGold]

^Thanks for sharing that Q, very insightful.

Originally Posted by T@T

Wow, talk about being close minded.

Just logical. Everything points to it being a group motivated politically utilizing religious extremists, it's not a war on religious land and the reports from news sources globally indicate political motivations. To blame it on religion seems to be a misattribution and your attitude seems to indicate personal issues with religion and religious people while ignoring news reports about what the attackers said and why they did it.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Great post. I have some general questions. I want to understand the mindset of the young Muslim man.

I assume you are Muslim and very happy to be Muslim. But if you were not happy what are your options. Can a person leave Islam? What are the ramifications? Do people often leave? Christians in North America have left their religion, there weren't many athiests 50 years ago.

Why is the 'western-born' Muslim person angry? Or more specifically, why is the 18 year old Calgary-born Muslim boy angry? I see your argument above and understand why the Middle Eastern Muslim is angry although I don't 100% buy it.

But why is the immigrant Muslim angry? Why are they joining ISIS? And if they are angry about Islam, why aren't they leaving it?

Yes, I'm Muslim and happy to be one. If a person wanted to leave Islam, the ramifications vary from country to country. In about 20 Muslim countries it is illegal with punishments ranging from fines to death. Large Muslim countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, and even Pakistan have no law regarding leaving Islam. However, even if there is no law, many people who convert out of Islam face problems like family shunning you. Not many people leave, even if there were no problems for leaving most Muslims are content with being Muslim.

In terms of why some Western Muslims are angry, there is no one answer. Geo-politics is huge. Whether it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Iraq war,etc there is a feeling that Muslim civilian deaths are brushed away as collateral damage. I would say that in a vast majority of cases, the impetus in some way or other was a war or conflict around the world. But there is a trend that I've noticed recently- some are expressing support for isis in an almost gang-like manner. They think that isis will give them the luxuries of the world : money, women, and power and you can not feel guilty about how you get it because there is a religious sprinkling to it. If you look at isis propaganda material, it's a weird mish-mash of religion and 21st century stuff like hashtags and memes. So, in general, I would say the main factor is politics, but there are other more subtle factors at play.

Hope this answered your questions.

[T@T]

^^ troubling to know there are muslim mosque's in Calgary(Canada for that matter) that teach radical thinking and that the very country they came to for a better life isn't a good enough society.

Any leader/imam teaching this crap should be put in 15 foot dory with one oar and pushed of the coast of newfoundland in January.

One question _Q_ ? Why didn't you report him?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by T@T

^^ troubling to know there are muslim mosque's in Calgary(Canada for that matter) that teach radical thinking and that the very country they came to for a better life isn't a good enough society.

Any leader/imam teaching this crap should be put in 15 foot dory with one oar and pushed of the coast of newfoundland in January.

One question _Q_ ? Why didn't you report him?

Good question actually. It's tough to say why I wouldn't report my friend. But the guy was like a brother to me. I knew his parents, his siblings, his cousins, uncles, etc. They were all very good people. They all knew that he had issues, but we all knew that he couldn't hurt a fly. We knew that he was a great guy that might have just been going through a "phase".... this wasn't the first phase he went through.

Also CSIS was keeping close tabs on him from what he told me. They visited his house a few times, detained him, questioned his family, some of our friends. So why would I add to this? Why would I rat my friend out if the government already has a pretty good idea with regards to who this guy is. Besides, he hadn't committed a crime or anything, he was just a bit weird.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Good question actually. It's tough to say why I wouldn't report my friend. But the guy was like a brother to me. I knew his parents, his siblings, his cousins, uncles, etc. They were all very good people. They all knew that he had issues, but we all knew that he couldn't hurt a fly. We knew that he was a great guy that might have just been going through a "phase".... this wasn't the first phase he went through.

Also CSIS was keeping close tabs on him from what he told me. They visited his house a few times, detained him, questioned his family, some of our friends. So why would I add to this? Why would I rat my friend out if the government already has a pretty good idea with regards to who this guy is. Besides, he hadn't committed a crime or anything, he was just a bit weird.

I think he meant more...why not report the Imam?

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Yes, I'm Muslim and happy to be one. If a person wanted to leave Islam, the ramifications vary from country to country. In about 20 Muslim countries it is illegal with punishments ranging from fines to death. Large Muslim countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, and even Pakistan have no law regarding leaving Islam. However, even if there is no law, many people who convert out of Islam face problems like family shunning you. Not many people leave, even if there were no problems for leaving most Muslims are content with being Muslim.

I'm wondering, if I may...do you have to join Islam in the first place? While I get that while you are part of the religion that leaving is not going to happen without dire consequences...do you have to join in the first place?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Yes, I'm Muslim and happy to be one. If a person wanted to leave Islam, the ramifications vary from country to country. In about 20 Muslim countries it is illegal with punishments ranging from fines to death. Large Muslim countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, and even Pakistan have no law regarding leaving Islam. However, even if there is no law, many people who convert out of Islam face problems like family shunning you. Not many people leave, even if there were no problems for leaving most Muslims are content with being Muslim.

In terms of why some Western Muslims are angry, there is no one answer. Geo-politics is huge. Whether it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Iraq war,etc there is a feeling that Muslim civilian deaths are brushed away as collateral damage. I would say that in a vast majority of cases, the impetus in some way or other was a war or conflict around the world. But there is a trend that I've noticed recently- some are expressing support for isis in an almost gang-like manner. They think that isis will give them the luxuries of the world : money, women, and power and you can not feel guilty about how you get it because there is a religious sprinkling to it. If you look at isis propaganda material, it's a weird mish-mash of religion and 21st century stuff like hashtags and memes. So, in general, I would say the main factor is politics, but there are other more subtle factors at play.

Hope this answered your questions.

Thanks. It's very interesting.

The strange part to me is why they care about the geo-politics of the middle east. Do you? I don't care at all about what happens in Asia. I'm not sure an Italian or Brazillian born in Canada would care much about Italy or Brazil

I guess I'm an assimilated Canadian. I'm not that religious either.

So I feel Muslims have a lot of pressures in society so maybe that's why they feel it's an uphill battle?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by AcGold

^Thanks for sharing that Q, very insightful.



Just logical. Everything points to it being a group motivated politically utilizing religious extremists, it's not a war on religious land and the reports from news sources globally indicate political motivations. To blame it on religion seems to be a misattribution and your attitude seems to indicate personal issues with religion and religious people while ignoring news reports about what the attackers said and why they did it.

Did I miss something? people in the concert hall reported hearing Allāhu Akbar over and over.

Is that not religious enough for you.

Just stop with your BS please, ISIS are Sunni's who live off a 1400 year old ideology(sharia law), It's a part of Islam that failed the evolution chain, they are stupid un-educated freaks that have no respect for human life and no desire to change, they need to be dead...nothing else matters, they just need to be wiped off the planet period.

Political my ass.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Yes, I'm Muslim and happy to be one. If a person wanted to leave Islam, the ramifications vary from country to country. In about 20 Muslim countries it is illegal with punishments ranging from fines to death. Large Muslim countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, and even Pakistan have no law regarding leaving Islam. However, even if there is no law, many people who convert out of Islam face problems like family shunning you. Not many people leave, even if there were no problems for leaving most Muslims are content with being Muslim.

In terms of why some Western Muslims are angry, there is no one answer. Geo-politics is huge. Whether it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Iraq war,etc there is a feeling that Muslim civilian deaths are brushed away as collateral damage. I would say that in a vast majority of cases, the impetus in some way or other was a war or conflict around the world. But there is a trend that I've noticed recently- some are expressing support for isis in an almost gang-like manner. They think that isis will give them the luxuries of the world : money, women, and power and you can not feel guilty about how you get it because there is a religious sprinkling to it. If you look at isis propaganda material, it's a weird mish-mash of religion and 21st century stuff like hashtags and memes. So, in general, I would say the main factor is politics, but there are other more subtle factors at play.

Hope this answered your questions.

Yes this is it.

To add to this, Muslims are taught that they belong to a sort of brotherhood. If your Muslim brother is suffering in Palestine or Afghanistan then you should be suffering as well. As a Muslim, you need to do whatever you can to help your brothers, which is a great idea honestly, if practiced properly. Most Muslims take it as giving to Middle Eastern charities, helping educate, clothe, shelter or providing jobs is their duty, but some think that they need to pick up an AK-47 and fight the oppressors, which like it or not, happen to be the infidel Crusaders dogs of the West (not my words).