Oct 2015 Alberta Budget Discussion

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by rubecube

And So Creds before that. The list of provincial governments in B.C. is pretty much an entire history of abject failures a racists.

It takes a special kind of mismanagement and impressive level of incompetence on the NDP side for the Liberals to take 77 of 79 seats in a union province that normally bleeds Orange.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

And why is that?

Our transportation system is extremely expensive to operate because our built form is not conducive to an efficient and effective transportation network.

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Why is it massively subsidized?

We are currently subsidizing our transportation network because people would go absolutely mental if they were forced to cover the cost of their transportation. Nonetheless, governments do need to provide at least one form of transportation for the public as accessibility is a public good.

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Why isn't the taxi service subsidized or airlines which in some cases should be considered a necessity of life?

While the transportation choices we have made in the past haven't been great, the subsidization you mention would be an even greater mistake in terms of efficient and effectiveness.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Would that eliminate the pointless overage? I've been in doctor's offices where there are forms for setting up monthly checkups. How do we stop this sort of thing from draining our budget?

No can't do in this free for all system. Some sort of user fee is the way to go. Know an emergency room doctor who told me some people show up on the dot every week for the same ailment just so they have someone to talk to. How can you stop that?

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, for the people who can afford it. Jesus. How much of a complete sociopath do you have to be to be a libertarian? I mean utopian socialism is certainly just as naive and ridiculous, but at least it's not cruel.

Stop the hyperbole. No one's talking about some laissez faire user pay version of health care, if that's what you're referring to.

Think of it more like when weddings move to a loonie bar after midnight so guests feel some sort of connection to their drink instead of just getting a new one because their current half full glass is on that table just over there...

And for the record, those health care levies that Prentice reintroduced aren't the above. Those were just a flat out tax.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Zevo

It takes a special kind of mismanagement and impressive level of incompetence on the NDP side for the Liberals to take 77 of 79 seats in a union province that normally bleeds Orange.

Normally bleeds orange? Outside of Vancouver and Victoria, that's really never been the case.

[PeteMoss]

I'd estimate 90% of the people complaining about this budget would have complained no matter what they would have produced.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, for the people who can afford it. Jesus. How much of a complete sociopath do you have to be to be a libertarian? I mean utopian socialism is certainly just as naive and ridiculous, but at least it's not cruel.

How much of a sociopath do you have to be to feel entitled to others paying for your medical care, in an inefficient system? Helping yourself to somebody else's wallet is incredibly selfish. I fail to see how paying a share for someone else's treatment, but wanting to pay a higher fee privately for one's own care is in any way cruel - it's selfless if anything.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by darklord700

No can't do in this free for all system. Some sort of user fee is the way to go. Know an emergency room doctor who told me some people show up on the dot every week for the same ailment just so they have someone to talk to. How can you stop that?

I don't think a user fee is the way to go. There will always be a small vulnerable excessively needy group. They are seen in due course at emerg based on the triage system (Heavy issues first, lighter things second... etc).

The first challenge would be avoiding the situation where we've turned away someone because of the inability to pay the fee:

For example: The first time an overly nervous mom is turned away by the fee requirement because she's brought her kid to emerg three successive nights with non-specific symptoms but this time it is meningitis and the kid ends up with a permanent disability--- all savings ($100) have gone out the window when our taxes will have to take care of the kids needs in perpetuity.

The second challenge of these proposed user fees is the resource requirement to collect the fees. It creates bureaucracy and bureaucracy costs money. Someone has to take time to collect the fees, record the deposits for the auditors, make the bank deposits, fill out the low-income exemptions, send overdue fees to collections, pass forms on to health care benefit programs for those people covered by their employer's insurance.

Assuming the nurses have enough to do, this means another administrative position in the Emerg - one that has to be staffed when ever the emerg is open and this admin position (4.5 FTE) will cost money for salaries. if the nurses do it, someone still has to follow up this administrivia stuff. Dealing with the cash transaction of every patient that comes into emerg could a significant resource sucking phenomena (unless maybe Uber wants to get into the Physician networking game)

the third challenge is the simplest: As I understand it, the Canada Health Health act prohibits extra fee stuff. We can implement extra fees in alberta and then the Feds cut off our Health care payment. Are we any further ahead? (does anyone remember when Alberta physicians used to extra-bill?)


So why are we suggesting to implement such a fees?

Is the goal to to lower health care costs?
Is the goal to keep people out of the emerg?
is the goal to weed out people for having untreated mental health issues where hypochondria as one of their symptoms?

are any of these worth the cost of implementing fees?


(now then.... could someone help me down from my soapbox???? ....Please??? ....the ladder is right over there...)

[Flash Walken]

Boy, if you think healthcare is bloated now, imagine it with a division devoted to processing and tracking down payment for user fees.

[Weitz]

I don't understand why Alberta Health can't afford to hire more full/part time nurses, but can afford to pay the current ones overtime because they don't have enough nurses to cover shifts.

It's mind boggling.

[killer_carlson]

Of all the health minister's we've had in the last 6 or 8 years, I think my confidence is highest in the current on - Sarah Hoffman - to actually get some of this under control. My perception is that she might be the most capable person in cabinet.

[puckhog]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I don't understand why Alberta Health can't afford to hire more full/part time nurses, but can afford to pay the current ones overtime because they don't have enough nurses to cover shifts.

It's mind boggling.

I don't know exactly how the numbers work out, so you might very well be right, but a big part of it is benefits and pensions, which add a lot of cost. Up to a certain point, you're better off paying the current number of nurses overtime rather than a greater number of nurses regular pay but also having to pay their benefits.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

So why are we suggesting to implement such a fees?

Is the goal to to lower health care costs?
Is the goal to keep people out of the emerg?
is the goal to weed out people for having untreated mental health issues where hypochondria as one of their symptoms?

All of the above.

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

are any of these worth the cost of implementing fees?

Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, the Netherlands etc. seem to think so.

But sadly, in the eyes of Canadians there is only our current system, and the bogeyman of the American system. When it comes to health care, it's as if the rest of the world doesn't exist.

[Bootsy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

All of the above.



Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, the Netherlands etc. seem to think so.

But sadly, in the eyes of Canadians there is only our current system, and the bogeyman of the American system. When it comes to health care, it's as if the rest of the world doesn't exist.

I've noticed this too , I find it kind of funny how quick left leaning people point to Norway and other European countries when it comes to oil policies but completely ignore their tiered healthcare systems

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Normally bleeds orange? Outside of Vancouver and Victoria, that's really never been the case.

Really? Up until Glen Clark and Co. pulled thier shenanagins the province was all about the NDP. Since then not so much.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I don't understand why Alberta Health can't afford to hire more full/part time nurses, but can afford to pay the current ones overtime because they don't have enough nurses to cover shifts.

It's mind boggling.

They have to educate and train them for 4 years first. To do that they have to hire more educaters and open up more classroonm space. It's not like there is a stockpile of nurses hanging around waiting to be hired.

Right now there are so many baby boomer nurses that are retiring that most provinces are having a hard time graduating them fast enough. Have you noticed how many south african, philipino, irish, and asian nurses there are now? It's noticeable(at least in B.C.) as they are actively recruiting nurses overseas as demand is outpacing the ability to supply.

People complain that they can't get hired out of University. They picked the wrong degree. Should have gone into healthcare.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by puckhog

I don't know exactly how the numbers work out, so you might very well be right, but a big part of it is benefits and pensions, which add a lot of cost. Up to a certain point, you're better off paying the current number of nurses overtime rather than a greater number of nurses regular pay but also having to pay their benefits.

Don't know about that, non-monetary benefits are generally a maximum 30% of wage costs (includes things like benefits, sick time, vacation time, pension, etc). There isn't really any calculation that can justify giving out OT at 150%-200% if the OT is scheduled on a regular basis.

[V]

Fringe at an organization like a hospital is close to 50%. I don't know if nurses make 150% or 200% for OT, but if it's 150%, it's going to be pretty close between hiring a new person or running OT.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'd estimate 90% of the people complaining about this budget would have complained no matter what they would have produced.

No the complaint is the ndp has went back on what they promised while campaigning like a balanced budget and now are telling us we won't get a cancer center for a while either. They will be spending that money on health and education which i highly doubt means more beds.

The ndp goverment isn't really giving albertans anything more than the conservatives would of except a deeper debt.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Nurses go on mat leave or leave for other union approved reasons all the time. Can't just hire new people when the old ones are coming back in a few months. My mom's a nurse and the OT has been crazy for as long as I can remember. I don't think it's a matter of just hiring more people or they would just do that.

You would think they would be able to go off previous years to plan for future years and just hire the right amount but it's just not that simple. It's like the most unpredictable industry around because you're mostly only needed when bad stuff happens, and you can't predict that or have a legion of people on hand to deal with every little thing just to ensure no OT gets used. You have to stay if there's an emergency and there's no telling when that could happen. It's literally impossible to plan for. Even if they hired twice as many nurses, there would still be OT, it's just the way it is.