[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Not at all, but i find it surprising that people are defending the Flames proposal. Welcome to big business; they are trying to screw you. Stand up to it and negotiate. Don't take this deal and say, wow this is great! what did we expect!

There are people who gloss over the details and say make it happen. There are people who are hard headed, quick to dismiss and automatically say no. Then there are the people who see that this is not a bad starting point to work from, but that some tweaks should be made.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

No it is not. A $10 ticket tax is effectively $10/ticket the Flames will have to take out of their future pockets to repay the lender. It's not like it'll be $10 on top of what supply and demand will dictate the price to be. The price will be the price. The Flames will then have to forgoe $10 of that price and give it to someone else instead of themselves. Once again, it's not like the cost of tickets will be $10 cheaper if there were no ticket tax.

The burden of the ticket tax falls on the Flames. They are effectively borrowing money against their future cash flows.

Yup, the opportunity cost, I already stated that.

Who is financing this $250 million up-front capital cost?
Has it been established?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I think you are on the right track and agree with moving the stadium to the fringe. The stadium seems to isolate the western half and cuts it off from transit. Why would anyone want to live there?

Also, I would re-route Bow trail according to the original ARP, push it away from the river.

At the end of the day, the location of the stadium is not great for inducing a new neighbourhood. It's taking away from the benefits of living over there by putting the stadium next to the river and not re-routing bow trail. These need to be done. I would much rather see it built as far away from the river as possible in the WV allowing for development of Res/Com by the water, or pushing it over to the far west leading to better integration with the Core.

Didn't you say yesterday that you were done giving your opinion on this?

[Hockeyguy15]

Also I think a lot of people are skipping over step 1, finding out how much cleaning up the land will cost.

If it's too expensive this project could end there, if it's cheaper than everyone expects then the financing details could drastically change in the cities favour.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'm just so disappointed. I really would like this to happen, it is 2km from my house and 2km from office (right in the middle) and would be great for my family and I to use in so many different ways. I was equally excited for not only the new venues, but the possibilities for West Village, which is just so ugly and I didn't get it.

I'm fine with the project being ugly at this point, but as many have said over the past several months, Ken King is not the person to lead this.

If being at this point after six years doesn't prove that...

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

For all the complaining about the fieldhouse and the arena, and how the City is getting nothing out of the deal, I believe its the residential and commercial development (the stuff in yellow) that is the big carrot for the City. All of that land (which looks to be the same size footprint as the fieldhouse/arena) is currently contaminated and underutilized. If there is enough incentive and impetus to get that cleaned up for redevelopment, the City can surely sell that land for a pretty hefty sum. The property taxes (subject to the CRL) would follow.

I also note that the land in yellow is right on the water, as Bow Trail cuts underneath. While there will need to be underpasses or bridges to get from there to the fieldhouse/arena (based on the current alignment), its a small price to pay for what could be a really nice chunk of land after it is remediated.

There is just no evidence that development would be greater with the arena, than it would be without. It's already well understood in City Hall that once East Village is sustainable the WV is the next area to focus. Development will come without the arena

[ThisIsAnOutrage]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

The thing is this isn't just about you, it's about the city as a whole.

I won't ever use the fancy library, I won't ever use the field house but I know it's good for the city.

In the end building a new facility makes more sense than renovating the old one. The biggest question is how to come to a point that benefits the Flames and the city a similar amount.

There's an interesting dynamic raised by the bolded parts above. While the benefits to the City and the Flames/CSE are quantifiable in terms of economic gain, the benefit to the individual fan is presumably a better experience at the events they attend. For individuals who don't attend events the ostensible benefit is civic pride, I guess, at having world class facilities that can host world class events. I feel like a key question has yet to be asked of the fans who foot the bill for the ticket tax and those individuals who don't attend the games/use the facilities: what is a better experience/enhanced civic pride worth in terms of your dollars (collected as tax), and the loss of opportunity to spend those dollars on other projects?


Still others, I wager, would also like to be asked if this sort of civic pride enhancing outlay should be a priority right now at all.

The individual does seem to get lost in the process despite there being an economic impact at the individual level.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by heep223

Didn't you say yesterday that you were done giving your opinion on this?

Indeed. But the same arguments for the project are still being made. plus I'm a sucker for debate, i guess.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

No it is not. A $10 ticket tax is effectively $10/ticket the Flames will have to take out of their future pockets to repay the lender. It's not like it'll be $10 on top of what supply and demand will dictate the price to be. The price will be the price. The Flames will then have to forgoe $10 of that price and give it to someone else instead of themselves. Once again, it's not like the cost of tickets will be $10 cheaper if there were no ticket tax.

The burden of the ticket tax falls on the Flames. They are effectively borrowing money against their future cash flows.

Unless they do what Katz is doing, and raise ticket prices by 30-40%.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

There are people who gloss over the details and say make it happen. There are people who are hard headed, quick to dismiss and automatically say no. Then there are the people who see that this is not a bad starting point to work from, but that some tweaks should be made.

Agreed. I think we have all argued this to death and are now entrenching in our positions.

I honestly have a hard time swallowing the whole proposal. I'm not a fan of the area they chose, the lack of infrastructure change, the design (I know it's not the actual design but it is probably similar or why show it) and the funding proposal. There is no plan B according to KK and I think there needs to be.

[tomo]

I watched the replay and looked at the website and I can't help but shake my head.
It's a billion dollar project and it looks and feels very amateur.
The renderings they released are embarrassing.
Even if this early days for the design you need to sell the idea and dream to people.
IT'S A BILLION DOLLAR PROJECT.
Perception is everything in the public.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cappy

There is just no evidence that development would be greater with the arena, than it would be without. It's already well understood in City Hall that once East Village is sustainable the WV is the next area to focus. Development will come without the arena

Yes, because there has been so much development on that land in the last 30 years. Prime waterfront property, with close proximity to downtown and Kensington, has not had anyone step up and develop that land. This is actually a very good incentive for business to go in and develop it. Without those two major buildings there, drawing people into that area on a consistent basis, why would anyone want to foot the cost of a risky and expensive development?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yes, because there has been so much development on that land in the last 30 years. Prime waterfront property, with close proximity to downtown and Kensington, has not had anyone step up and develop that land. This is actually a very good incentive for business to go in and develop it. Without those two major buildings there, drawing people into that area on a consistent basis, why would anyone want to foot the cost of a risky and expensive development?

The city can do that. They have done so with the East Village and have plans for the WV once the east village is up and running. I forgot how much business has grown around the saddledome and mcmahon over the yrs.

[Cappy]

Druh Farrell speaks:

http://www.calgary.ca/councillors/wa...good-idea.aspx

• Who pays for the contamination cleanup? The cleanup of creosote contaminated land in the West Village is not included in the sticker price. The City does not have the funding for the cleanup.
• While a public multi-sport fieldhouse is high on the City’s list of priorities, it is currently unfunded.
• CalgaryNEXT would require a large investment in transportation and utilities infrastructure, in addition to the $900 million price-tag, investments that have yet to be investigated and are currently unfunded.
• Coupled with the contamination clean-up, the final price tag could exceed $1.5 billion.
• Value of land was not included in the $900 million estimate. The City would forego future tax revenues and money from the sale of the land.
• A Community Revitalization Levy (CRL) is basically a loan on future tax revenue, generated within a fixed boundary. Can the West Village generate sufficient CRL tax dollars required to fund the redevelopment of West Village plus an arena?
• Community Revitalization Levies can be high-risk ventures. To mitigate risk, a CRL needs a stable financial anchor. For example, the Bow Tower, the financial anchor for East Village (Rivers District), generates $22 million in property taxes per year. When the CRL expires, the taxes will go to general revenue. Currently the Saddledome does not pay property taxes. Where will the tax revenue come from to pay for the CRL?
• The Saddledome is obsolete after 32 years. Will the life of the “mortgage” for the arena - the CRL - exceed the life of the arena?
• The futures of the Saddledome and McMahon Stadium remain unclear. The vitality of the Calgary Stampede, a cultural jewel in the City, has also not been fully considered.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yes, because there has been so much development on that land in the last 30 years. Prime waterfront property, with close proximity to downtown and Kensington, has not had anyone step up and develop that land. This is actually a very good incentive for business to go in and develop it. Without those two major buildings there, drawing people into that area on a consistent basis, why would anyone want to foot the cost of a risky and expensive development?

If they could get a similar CRL contribution and the cost of the remediation covered by various levels of government, I think they would jump at the chance. Hell, they may even pay for the land.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cappy

The city can do that. They have done so with the East Village and have plans for the WV once the east village is up and running. I forgot how much business has grown around the saddledome and mcmahon over the yrs.

So the City should be responsible for driving the development of the area, and foot the cleanup themselves, but not participate in a venture where they essentially underwrite the project at minimal cost and get the cleanup paid for in short order? If the City drives this, they see that land sit there for another 30 years while bureaucrats argue over the various plans to make it happen, as has been going on for 30 years. Here that have a large economic driver coming in that will force that redevelopment to take place in short order. I guarantee that with the NEXT project that area will be built out in 10 years. Without it, it will be another 30 years of squabbling.

Please don't compare EV and WV. Completely different scenarios with different zoning challenges and constraints because of the Stampede grounds. WV has a much better chance of success because it is already zoned for the use theNEXT project has on the drawing board. The politics on this could be minimal and the City of Calgary would have another jewel in the downtown core to be proud of. The only thing holding this back is small town thinking. The same thing doomed the Phoenix market when Mesa didn't think long term and the benefits of such developments. I hope Calgary doesn't make the same mistake.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by tomo

I watched the replay and looked at the website and I can't help but shake my head.
It's a billion dollar project and it looks and feels very amateur.
The renderings they released are embarrassing.
Even if this early days for the design you need to sell the idea and dream to people.
IT'S A BILLION DOLLAR PROJECT.
Perception is everything in the public.

Have to agree. Everything came off very amateur. I was really excited for the annoucement but after yesterday I'm not exactly confident that this is gonna get pulled off the way it should. Anything is better than the Dome but when you spend this kind of money you should do it right. All this time and this was the best they could come up with? I agree perception is everything and their sales job sucked.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

So the City should be responsible for driving the development of the area, and foot the cleanup themselves, but not participate in a venture where they essentially underwrite the project at minimal cost and get the cleanup paid for in short order? If the City drives this, they see that land sit there for another 30 years while bureaucrats argue over the various plans to make it happen, as has been going on for 30 years. Here that have a large economic driver coming in that will force that redevelopment to take place in short order. I guarantee that with the NEXT project that area will be built out in 10 years. Without it, it will be another 30 years of squabbling.

Please don't compare EV and WV. Completely different scenarios with different zoning challenges and constraints because of the Stampede grounds. WV has a much better chance of success because it is already zoned for the use theNEXT project has on the drawing board. The politics on this could be minimal and the City of Calgary would have another jewel in the downtown core to be proud of. The only thing holding this back is small town thinking. The same thing doomed the Phoenix market when Mesa didn't think long term and the benefits of such developments. I hope Calgary doesn't make the same mistake.

- The flames are not paying for the remediation. The city/prov will be regardless of when it is done.
- the cost is atleast 450 million by the city. not including infrastructure and remediation. By doing an EV type project they can sell the land.
- there is no evidence that the arena will be an economic driver and economists have consistently stated otherwise. This issue has been raised in previous posts.
- Exactly, WV has so much more going for it, so why beat a dead horse by spending a ton of money on a building that provides zero tax dollars to an area that already has a ton of potential
- I'm pretty sure faulting the Phoenix area for incompetence works both ways with respect to sports stadiums.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cappy

- The flames are not paying for the remediation. The city/prov will be regardless of when it is done.
- the cost is atleast 450 million by the city. not including infrastructure and remediation.
- there is no evidence that the arena will be an economic driver and economists have consistently stated otherwise. This issue has been raised in previous posts.
- Exactly, WV has so much more going for it, so why beat a dead horse by spending a ton of money on a building that provides zero tax dollars to an area that already has a ton of potential
- I'm pretty sure faulting the Phoenix area for incompetence works both ways with respect to sports stadiums.

I view this "the City can do do it" crap as building a massive complex shopping and entertainment area without an anchor tenant. You tell me how successful projects are without that anchor tenant? This project guarantees a steady flow of traffic year round, which will drive businesses into the area. Without that, it's status quo. The other problem I see is small town thinking by small town people. Calgary wants to be a world class city, but doesn't want to make the investments to do so. Until that mentality changes, nothing else changes. I didn't realize that until I moved away but it is true. Too many people without vision.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

I view this "the City can do do it" crap as building a massive complex shopping and entertainment area without an anchor tenant. You tell me how successful projects are without that anchor tenant? This project guarantees a steady flow of traffic year round, which will drive businesses into the area. Without that, it's status quo. The other problem I see is small town thinking by small town people. Calgary wants to be a world class city, but doesn't want to make the investments to do so. Until that mentality changes, nothing else changes. I didn't realize that until I moved away but it is true. Too many people without vision.

East village is working out pretty great thanks to the city and CMLC. I would trust them to do that again. No proposal for a mall.

Year round? come on. We know that isn't true. The numbers in between games will be insignificant to sustain an entire area.

World class city? there it is. The PRESTIGE. how is that working for Edmonton? there arena is really nice. It will be one of the nicest in the NHL. Are we ready to start calling it world class. Buildings do not make a city world class. That is 1930's thinking.