[News] Patrick Kane being investigated for rape. UPD: DA announces no charges

[MBates]

Originally Posted by JohnnyT

No charges yet so really can't say anything about it yet. Flames fans should remember Ferlands case and that this will not be cut and dry for a while

I could not agree more...in fact this could be the understatement of the year.

Consider this recent case:

http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc...&resultIndex=8

Allegations made in 2009 about sexual assaults claimed to have occurred between 2001 and 2005.

Accused stands trial and is convicted in 2013.

A little over a year later in 2014 the majority of the appeal court says the trial judge made findings that were not supported by the evidence and that the inconsistencies in the complainant's evidence compelled a new trial.

A few months ago the prosecution was stayed as the new Crown determined there was no reasonable likelihood of conviction.

So to summarize...Prosecutor #1 ran the case and got convictions...but from a trial judge that completely messed up assessing the evidence...and then Prosecutor #2 argues vehemently on appeal the conviction should stand...actually convincing one of the three appeal judges. The other two judges say there are just too many problems with the evidence from the first trial...but not enough to enter an acquittal so they order the accused to face a new trial. Then Prosecutor #3 decides the evidence is too bad to even give a chance at a conviction and folds the tent.

Accused lost family, probably most of friends, at least one job, spent months in prison as a convicted sex offender, and now is once again innocent in the eyes of the law...nearly 6 years after being accused.

Could it be too early for everyone to weigh in on the Kane case? That doesn't even exist yet?

Someone a lot more adept than me should be able to pull up some posts about reports of the Ferland charges that now in hindsight will look pretty silly.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This has literally never happened. You clearly know nothing about either criminal or civil process. And I'd sugegst to you that any celebtrity that paid a half million to someone in that time frame did it to cover up a crime.

You can see right from this response why victims are reluctant to even report rapes. Already there are wild assumptions about motivation.

Nothing to do with this case or rape in general but there are whole cottage industries involved with frivolous lawsuits. Lawyers look at the situation and determine if it is cheaper to just hand them money rather than fight it.

Happens all the time, the guilt of the person/company isn't part of the equation.

[GioforPM]

"Because of this scenario (ie, that a wealthy person is more likely to settle than to go through a trial exposing their personal lives) that IT IS LIKELY the amount of false accusations among celebs/wealthy people is higher than those among normal people."

This is an unsupported guess. I say the opposite is the case - that false accusations are more likely against people who can't defend them as well. And that accusations against celebrities that surface like this are more likley to be true because despite the wealth and power of the celebrity, the accusation still is made.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DJones

Nothing to do with this case or rape in general but there are whole cottage industries involved with frivolous lawsuits. Lawyers look at the situation and determine if it is cheaper to just hand them money rather than fight it.

Happens all the time, the guilt of the person/company isn't part of the equation.

The only such "cottage industry" I know of involves patent law. This is a criminal case.

Cases where a settlement is reached "rather than fighting it" are where there's a legitimate dispute and a chance of a loss. I can't imagine a civil case over rape where a lawyer would say "well, this is a false accusation, but let's just pay".

ETA: it sure wouldn't happen in a month as well.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Is rape really just about power though? I think to some that would definitely be the case but not sure you can really make a blanket statement like that. It would be like saying all serial killers kill for blank reason. I think sexual desire could easily play a major part of it for some.

Research related to interviews with rapists begs to differ.

This isn't something I'm just pulling out my ass; it's accepted scientific doctrine.

In fact, the general public belief that rape is about sex is what proliferates things like "oh she was asking for it wearing that dress" etc.

[justafan]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Is rape really just about power though? I think to some that would definitely be the case but not sure you can really make a blanket statement like that. It would be like saying all serial killers kill for blank reason. I think sexual desire could easily play a major part of it for some.

Wow. I assume you think most rape victims are pretty blond co-eds? Say what you wrote to the 5 year old, raped by her fathers friend. Or the 82 year old raped by a repairman. Rape victims go to the hospital, like this woman did, and submit to a rape kit, while police presence is there. They will examine all the bruises, bite marks, cuts and damage to her internal organs. She will have to answer questions and give all her clothing to the police. And probably the rapist will get away.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by DJones

You've never had sex with a girl that may be black out? I've been on the otherside of that problem a few times.

Not proud of it and it's embarrassing to not remember but to assert that anything criminal happened is preposterous.

If you are ever engaging in sexual activity with someone who is unconscious or near unconscious from alcohol, you need to stop immediately because you are very likely committing a sexual assault. I urge you to take this advice seriously.

[GioforPM]

The ferland case is a bit different IMO. There you have a bar fight, a guy with serious injuries and the cops charged the guy standing. Heck, Ferland even admitted the basic facts and the defence of self-defence stuck (you can hit first in self-defence).

This one involves a rape accusation, which means she either did consent or not. Which means either she's a lying gold-digger or not. There is, I suppose, one gray area - a chance of "honest but mistaken belief of consent" but those are actually pretty rare. No means no after all.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Makarov

If you are ever engaging in sexual activity with someone who is unconscious or near unconscious from alcohol, you need to stop immediately because you are very likely committing a sexual assault. I urge you to take this advice seriously.

If I understood correctly, the poster is not a boy.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by thefoss1957

Just rumors flying around Chicago Fan sites...

however...to quote Tim Graham, a Buffalo reporter being interviewed on the "Kap and Haugh" radio show: "at this point it doesn't look good for Kane"...

FWIW, a tweet regarding the statutory rape angle from a fake account purporting to be from a Chicago area senior corespondent was already posted here as well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

If I understood correctly, the poster is not a boy.

It was a confusing post. But if the "I've been on the other side" means that the poster was subjected to sex while unconscious, no it's not preposterous at all that something criminal happened.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Makarov

If you are ever engaging in sexual activity with someone who is unconscious or near unconscious from alcohol, you need to stop immediately because you are very likely committing a sexual assault. I urge you to take this advice seriously.

Why would they unconscious? A girl could be the initiator and be all over you and still not remember. There are cases in the news where girls text their friends "I'm going to go have sex with _____" next morning she regrets it and says he raped her because she couldn't remember. Guy got expelled from school. She came over to his house at 3 am to have sex and he still got expelled and had to fight charges for 2 years.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

"Because of this scenario (ie, that a wealthy person is more likely to settle than to go through a trial exposing their personal lives) that IT IS LIKELY the amount of false accusations among celebs/wealthy people is higher than those among normal people."

This is an unsupported guess. I say the opposite is the case - that false accusations are more likely against people who can't defend them as well. And that accusations against celebrities that surface like this are more likley to be true because despite the wealth and power of the celebrity, the accusation still is made.

This is also an unsupported guess. Everything is this freaking thread is an unsupported guess. In fact, you actually state that you think they are more likely to be true. I've never once said anything about the frequency of false accusations being higher than real accusations. In fact, I've implied the opposite. I've simply suggested that the false accusations among the wealthy/famous may be more frequent than false accusations against regular people (not in total numbers, because obviously the wealthy is a much smaller population size, but in ratio). I completely agree that the amount of actual rapes will FAR FAR FAR outweigh the false accusations regardless of the accused's status.

Using just logic, if you were a person that was sitting there twiddling their thumbs thinking about falsely accusing someone of rape for personal gain, you're telling me that your target would be just some random person, or someone from your past that you just want to ruin? Or would logic not dictate that you would go after someone who had substantial resources with which to make you go away, and could stand to lose much more from having their personal lives exposed in this way that they would prefer to pay you off than go through the rigors of proving their innocence?

I want to make it clear that I am completely impartial to this case. I don't care if Kane is found guilty and loses all he has, and I don't care if the girl is shown to be a liar. Sheer numbers will dictate that it's much more likely to be true than false, but that doesn't mean that it's not more likely to be false than if he wasn't a high-profile famous person (it can still be much more likely to be true in that scenario).

[DJones]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was a confusing post. But if the "I've been on the other side" means that the poster was subjected to sex while unconscious, no it's not preposterous at all that something criminal happened.

Haha I'm a guy, I meant I've woken up with having sex with a girl and not known where I am. Fine for that to happen to a guy but with a girl it's sexual assault.

[PepsiFree]

I think the NHL's suspension of Kane will obviously depend first on the development of the case, and second on their deposition of Kane. Varlamov was not suspended despite charges, while Voynov was. Billy Daly said the situations were different.

The sad part about all this is potential innocence doesn't matter as Kane will face the court of public opinion starting now. Even more sad? If guilty, he won't likely face a criminal conviction and will continue to play in the NHL.

Interesting question: If Kane is guilty, does that change how we view him as a player? I still laugh at old Cosby bits, while knowing he's a horrible person. Will we still marvel at what Kane has produced on the ice?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by DJones

Haha I'm a guy, I meant I've woken up with having sex with a girl and not known where I am. Fine for that to happen to a guy but with a girl it's sexual assault.

It's actually been successfully prosecuted and tried by men against women as well.

Non-consensual sex is always rape, regardless of the gender of those not giving consent.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Interesting question: If Kane is guilty, does that change how we view him as a player? I still laugh at old Cosby bits, while knowing he's a horrible person. Will we still marvel at what Kane has produced on the ice?

It will feel a lot more gross when Kane/Gaudreau comparisons are brought up, that's for sure.

[Flash Walken]

"When men talk about rape on the internet..."

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I suppose just looking at who has more to gain and who has more to lose. Sure there are probably examples of every possible outcome but until I see more evidence that's my gut feeling.

"More to lose"?

Let's see.

Girl: you get to be humiliated, hated and called a golddigger. Possibility of having to move, change names and/or change jobs. Chance of getting hate mail and threatening phone calls at night. Most of this stuff could happen whether or no it's proven she was raped.

Kane: could maybe lose some money in a settlement. Will carry on his life as a popular multimillionaire regardless.

[Hyde]

Originally Posted by justafan

Wow. I assume you think most rape victims are pretty blond co-eds? Say what you wrote to the 5 year old, raped by her fathers friend. Or the 82 year old raped by a repairman. Rape victims go to the hospital, like this woman did, and submit to a rape kit, while police presence is there. They will examine all the bruises, bite marks, cuts and damage to her internal organs. She will have to answer questions and give all her clothing to the police. And probably the rapist will get away.

As a huge Patrick Kane fan, I hope its not true. That being said everyone should feel that they can report their rape. Not everyone does for lots of different, often highly personal reasons.

We live in a society that blames victims and survivors, and which places responsibility on women to avoid rape, not on men to not rape. Our society sexualises women in such a way that all women are viewed as sexually available at all times to all men and creates the idea that a women who refuses to have sex is unfairly denying her boyfriend/husband/friend/date. Our society teaches men that sex is their right and that women are fickle and often mean yes when they say no. Our society teaches men that they should pursue women and sex even when their would-be bedroom partner is unwilling, because ‘a no is just a yes that needs convincing’.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

Is he still a dirtbag if it's not true?

He's a dooshbag regardless.