Comparing top 15 prospects from other Canadian teams

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by RobbieT

Take McDavid and Nurse off that list, and none would break our top 10... Winnipeg looks good, but a lot of small players, even if the new game is going smaller and faster, it's still a gamble. Still feel we look great, but can admit my own biases... Rest of Canada does not look great at all! Jets and Flames will be the toast of Canada for a while. Oilers are still without any defence and repeated their past mistakes of signing back-up goalies and expecting them to take the helm with no D in front of them! The Oilers are not the Rangers, no different than they weren't the Ducks or the Kings when they signed and destroyed the careers of their backups!

Not a huge fan of Griffin but i'd easily put him on our top 10 list. There isn't even a question about Draisitl.

Leafs are on a up trend; Marner, Nylander are a good start.

I wouldn't bet against Sens and Habs scouting either.

You can be biased but please at least stay realistic. It's annoying reading other fan bases homer statements. It's no fun reading it from fellow Flames either.

[Oil Stain]

Oilers didn't suck forever because they had no prospect depth.

They sucked because they kept pushing too many rookies into the NHL season after season while trading away guys who were just finishing developing.

When you dump guys like Cogliano, Gilbert, Petry, Brodziak, etc. for picks season after season it becomes impossible to fill the holes.

So a good NHL team only needs one or two prospects to step in and fill holes per season while they fill their other immediate needs through retaining vets, trades, and free agency.

Quality is always the most important thing in the NHL. Any team that desires can have 9 fourth liners sitting in their system ready to go at any time.

No one is going to trade 3 first round draft picks for 7 fourth round draft picks.

Likewise, its more important to have quality prospects over a lot of prospects. Of course having both quality prospects AND a lot of prospects at the same time is the best but saying quality=depth is asinine.

Look at the Flames own prospect list from 2013:

The top 3 is worth more than the rest of the list combined.

1. Monahan
2. Baertschi
3. Gaudreau
4. Gillies
5. Jankowski
6. Wotherspoon
7. Sieloff
8. Knight
9. Poirier
10.Klimchuck
11.Horak
12.Agostino
12.Granlund
14.Reinhart
15.Cundari
16.Ramage
17.Brossoit
18.Arnold
19.Breen
20.Berra

[GranteedEV]

You need your stars (though Baertschi ended up falling behind much of that list), but ask the Kings and Hawks about guys who contributed to their championship squads. Guys like Pearson, Muzzin, Toffoli, King, Martinez, Saad, Hjalmarsson, Teravainen, Kruger, Shaw, Bickell, Leddy, Byfuglein, Bolland still made their significant contributions to those teams at high values. Meanwhile, the top-heavy Penguins, even with with Letang, Kessel, Malkin, Crosby and Fleury, don't really look like a contender... they've been getting worse every year and their rentals keep backfiring on them too.

Guys like Jankowski, Poirier, Klimchuk, Granlund, Kulak, Culkin, Wotherspoon, Arnold, Ferland, Gillies, Elson were already in our system in 2013 as you pointed out. We'll be able to maximize them as players or assets in the immediate future and we'll also be able to replace them if/when they get expensive, because we continue to stock the depth to do it - Mangiapane, Caroll, Smith, Hickey, Kylington, Andersson, Kanzig, etc. That is depth, not just "who is our usless 4th line wing" but "which 700k third line forward can step up and look pretty good playing on the 2nd line when need be".

You need to keep cycling guys like this to contribute if you want to stay competitive because those "stars" become expensive VERY quickly. You don't find these kind of guys in trades and free agency because their performance per dollar is sky-high. Otherwise your window is three years while McDavid's on his ELC and then you're hooped.

Also, It's not just guys that contribute, but assets used in trades. How did the Kings acquire Jeff Carter and Mike Richards? They traded away young players like Schenn, Simmonds, and Jack Johnson. They had to have these guys in the first place and identify them as non-core pieces. This might very well be the fate of some of our prospects and that's how you build "quality". You have to be able to afford to trade multiple roster players for one and the only way to fill the void is through your own system.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You need your stars (though Baertschi ended up falling behind much of that list), but ask the Kings and Hawks about guys who contributed to their championship squads. Guys like Pearson, Muzzin, Toffoli, King, Martinez, Saad, Hjalmarsson, Teravainen, Kruger, Shaw, Bickell, Leddy, Byfuglein, Bolland still made their significant contributions to those teams at high values. Meanwhile, the top-heavy Penguins, even with with Letang, Kessel, Malkin, Crosby and Fleury, don't really look like a contender... they've been getting worse every year and their rentals keep backfiring on them too..

I'd be over the moon if my team could have success like the Penguins in the last 8 years.

1 Cup
2 Finals appearances
3 Eastern Conference finals
5 Second Round appearances

They trail only LA and Chicago in terms of success in that span. I'm not sure why people constantly downplay their achievements. They've only had one off year which was last year when they lost their entire defence at once.

Before that 13/14- 6th in regular season. Lost in second round.
12/13- 2nd in regular season. Lost in 3rd round.

That's nothing to sneeze at. You mention Muzzin as a key for the Kings, and he was actually drafted by the Penguins. It's not fair to expect a team to be able to pull an impact player out of the draft every season.

The Chicago Blackhawks had a 5 year stretch from 2006-2010 where they have basically nothing to show for their drafts besides Toews and Kane. They were just lucky that they were at a point in the development of their team that they didn't NEED any young players to step in as they had loads of bargain contracts, and the cheater contracts on the books.

Again you talk about depth of prospects, but outside the top 5 or so at any given time, the rest of the prospects don't have much impact on the future of a team. Again going back to the Flames prospects from 2013. Half of them are no longer Flames property 2 seasons later. I think as a team you are just as likely to find an NHLer by signing a european/college/undrafted free agent as you are in your drafted depth prospects. That's another reason quality trumps depth. There are probably 2-3 times the amount of players in the world than there are in the NHL that could conceivably fill in a depth role on an NHL team.

1. Monahan
2. Baertschi
3. Gaudreau
4. Gillies
5. Jankowski
6. Wotherspoon
7. Sieloff
8. Knight
9. Poirier
10.Klimchuck
11.Horak
12.Agostino
12.Granlund
14.Reinhart
15.Cundari
16.Ramage
17.Brossoit
18.Arnold
19.Breen
20.Berra

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Oilers didn't suck forever because they had no prospect depth.

The Oilers have sucked forever for a multitude of reasons, and that sure IS one of them.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by RobbieT

Take McDavid and Nurse off that list, and none would break our top 10...

Hyperbole is fun (and helps balance out our merciful use of the term "no good"), but u less you're counting Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, still I can't see how we wouldn't have Conroy, a private jet and a freshly printed contract ready for Draisaitl if he were in our system - a kid who's image never would have been tainted by MacTacish' trademark "Sink or swim? Pretty Sure it's Swim Til Ya Sink, Kiddo!" system. Griffin mah be near the 10 cutoff but he likely makes it as well- haven't paid attention to him lately.

[Vinny01]

One of the reasons the Flames rebuild has gone much quicker than Edmonton is the fact there have been a few late round picks develop and become top players on the team. Gaudreau and Brodie as 4th round picks are young first line/top pair players. The Flames did not give up on Backlund and snagged Colborne for cheap and now both are legit top 9 NHL forwards. Bouma is a 3rd round pick playing an important role for the team.

In terms of current prospects both Gillies and Hickey appear to have tremendous potential as late round picks.

Calgary also having Monahan and Bennett fall into their lap when they likely should have been picked a spot higher helps out as well. Monahan currently would go 1-3 in a redraft and I fully believe Bennett will be the best player of the 2014 draft

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Again you talk about depth of prospects, but outside the top 5 or so at any given time, the rest of the prospects don't have much impact on the future of a team. Again going back to the Flames prospects from 2013. Half of them are no longer Flames property 2 seasons later. I think as a team you are just as likely to find an NHLer by signing a european/college/undrafted free agent as you are in your drafted depth prospects. That's another reason quality trumps depth. There are probably 2-3 times the amount of players in the world than there are in the NHL that could conceivably fill in a depth role on an NHL team.

1. Monahan
2. Baertschi
3. Gaudreau
4. Gillies
5. Jankowski
6. Wotherspoon
7. Sieloff
8. Knight
9. Poirier
10.Klimchuck
11.Horak
12.Agostino
12.Granlund
14.Reinhart
15.Cundari
16.Ramage
17.Brossoit
18.Arnold
19.Breen
20.Berra

You really are clueless when it comes to this topic, aren't you. Having prospect depth allows you to make moves to improve the team. Continuing to draft solid prospects is what keeps your system healthy and able to move some of your current prospects for futures of pieces in a bigger deal.

For example, even though Baertschi was not living up to expectations, and held a gun to the head of the team, the Flames had enough prospect depth that the loss of Baertschi was not felt. Gaudreau had already stepped in a surpassed Baertschi. Micheal Ferland and Kenny Agostino had both surpassed Baertschi in the system. Markus Granlund can play LW as well, making another player that clearly surpassed Baertschi. Even with Sven looking like he wasn't going to pan out for the Flames they were still able to convert Baertschi into a 2nd round pick. That second round pick then gave the Flames the flexibility to target a bigger need in the organization and acquire Dougie Hamilton, while still maintaining enough picks to have a draft where they addressed organizational weakness as well.

Going down the list of highlighted players really shows you don't understand the importance of good prospects. Knight was traded for Shore, maintaining a balance in the prospect pool, or actually improving said pool. Reinhart, like Baertschi, was bypassed by numerous prospects and traded for another draft pick. That is a good thing and something you hope to see, as it means your prospect depth is continually improving. Cundari, Ramage and Breen were all released from the Flames system for pretty much the same reason. Better prospects had come along and had made these guys expendable. That is what prospect depth does for you.

That prospect depth is never more evident than ever when you look at the final three names on your list. Reto Berra, the #20 prospect on the list, was moved for 2nd round pick that turned into Hunter Smith! Roman Horak and Laurent Brossoit, the #11 and 17 prospects, were traded for Laddy Smid and Oliver Roy. We got a NHL defenseman out of two guys that had fallen down our list to the point where it was a long shot for them to make the club. Ironically, one of those guys (Horak) was one of your best prospects and you let him walk with having nothing in the system to back fill the position. The other guy (Brossoit) who never would have got a sniff of the NHL in Calgary's system is now in your top five. That is a pretty damning condemnation of the Oilers' system and lack of prospect depth. When a guy that was buried in Calgary is now in your top five, that says something about how bad your system is.

The depth in the Flames system allowed the club to trade away unneeded players for draft picks to continue the cycle and keep the system well sticked and healthy. The Oilers lack of depth had them investing picks in players other teams were willing to cast off. To try and manufacture some depth the Oilers gave away the very picks needed to build depth. The difference there is very obvious, but you fail to let this register. This is why you have to cling to the hope/belief that your top prospects are the only important ones. For the Oilers that is doubly sad, because your top five is comprised of guys other teams gave away.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Again you talk about depth of prospects, but outside the top 5 or so at any given time, the rest of the prospects don't have much impact on the future of a team. Again going back to the Flames prospects from 2013. Half of them are no longer Flames property 2 seasons later. I think as a team you are just as likely to find an NHLer by signing a european/college/undrafted free agent as you are in your drafted depth prospects. That's another reason quality trumps depth. There are probably 2-3 times the amount of players in the world than there are in the NHL that could conceivably fill in a depth role on an NHL team.

1. Monahan
2. Baertschi
3. Gaudreau
4. Gillies
5. Jankowski
6. Wotherspoon
7. Sieloff
8. Knight
9. Poirier
10.Klimchuck
11.Horak
12.Agostino
12.Granlund
14.Reinhart
15.Cundari
16.Ramage
17.Brossoit
18.Arnold
19.Breen
20.Berra

You really are missing the point here. Just because they don't all turn into impact NHL players, they are assets that can be used to acquire the pieces you need to fill out a roster.

Just for example: 20th ranked Reto Berra was traded to the Colorado Avalanche for a 2nd round pick in 2014. The Flames used that pick to acquire Hunter Smith, and while he isn't assuredly going to be an NHL player, he's got a decent shot at becoming a significant depth piece on a roster.

Knight turned into Drew Shore, who looks like he can also fill a depth position in the lineup, although in what capacity is yet to be determined. Horak and Brossoit were used as pieces in the Smid trade, and while he might not play again, he was a key contributor in the season he was traded in providing stability to the defense. Baertschi turned into a 2nd round pick that got us Rasmus Andersson, who looks to be a nice asset. Reinhart, Cundari, Ramage, and Breen were all passed on the depth chart by BETTER prospects, a direct result of good drafting, making them expendable. Even so, Reinhart (a declining 3rd round pick) got us a 4th round pick in return, and so the cycle continues until you hit on a winning prospect.

These scenarios keep a franchise flush with possible players to add to the lineup, rather than perpetually trying to sign players like Boyd Gordon and Lauri Korpikoski to fill out a lineup.

But don't worry, I'll be happy if the Oilers never learn these lessons and remain stuck in mediocrity despite having a few star players.

Edit: LOL, New Era had pretty much the same thoughts as I did.

[Sutter_in_law]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Oilers didn't suck forever because they had no prospect depth.

They sucked because they kept pushing too many rookies into the NHL season after season while trading away guys who were just finishing developing.

But I thought it was all "cause Eakins" ??

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

You really are missing the point here. Just because they don't all turn into impact NHL players, they are assets that can be used to acquire the pieces you need to fill out a roster.

Just for example: 20th ranked Reto Berra was traded to the Colorado Avalanche for a 2nd round pick in 2014. The Flames used that pick to acquire Hunter Smith, and while he isn't assuredly going to be an NHL player, he's got a decent shot at becoming a significant depth piece on a roster.

Knight turned into Drew Shore, who looks like he can also fill a depth position in the lineup, although in what capacity is yet to be determined. Horak and Brossoit were used as pieces in the Smid trade, and while he might not play again, he was a key contributor in the season he was traded in providing stability to the defense. Baertschi turned into a 2nd round pick that got us Rasmus Andersson, who looks to be a nice asset. Reinhart, Cundari, Ramage, and Breen were all passed on the depth chart by BETTER prospects, a direct result of good drafting, making them expendable. Even so, Reinhart (a declining 3rd round pick) got us a 4th round pick in return, and so the cycle continues until you hit on a winning prospect.

These scenarios keep a franchise flush with possible players to add to the lineup, rather than perpetually trying to sign players like Boyd Gordon and Lauri Korpikoski to fill out a lineup.

But don't worry, I'll be happy if the Oilers never learn these lessons and remain stuck in mediocrity despite having a few star players.

Edit: LOL, New Era had pretty much the same thoughts as I did.

It's cute that you think the Flames are the only team that trades prospects that aren't working out for picks or other players.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

It's cute that you think the Flames are the only team that trades prospects that aren't working out for picks or other players.

You aren't paying attention at all. He isn't saying that.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

It's cute that you think the Flames are the only team that trades prospects that aren't working out for picks or other players.

It's cute that you come onto CP summer after summer preaching how amazing your team is going to be, then going quiet around November when the Oilers are all but mathematically eliminated from playoff contention.

[Sutter_in_law]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

You aren't paying attention at all. He isn't saying that.

Oh he's paying attention alright - he's just deflecting and ignores any sound arguments against him and trolls on.

[flamesfan1297]

I just wanna say that the OP who started this thread makes a very bold prediction In his username.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

It's cute that you think the Flames are the only team that trades prospects that aren't working out for picks or other players.

No, to the contrary it's a common practice around good teams in the league. The Oilers never do this because nobody wants any of the garbage they draft. Draft picks are assets that are renewed annually, and if you utilize them well, they can be used to fill out your roster in various ways. If you're the Oilers, you use them to give a player false hope of an NHL career.

[Phil Russell]

There is not a team in the NHL that proves the point better, than the Oilers, that prospect depth is vitally important to building a successful team. If you are a fan of that team, and you haven't learned that lesson over the last decade, then your learning is broke.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

It's cute that you think the Flames are the only team that trades prospects that aren't working out for picks or other players.

It's kind of embarrassing that you don't understand the concept being explained. Part of the problem orders face is the fact that they have no reason to be improving at the draft order team on the ice.The Orleans only prospects that they can possibly trade are those the cats afford to lose. If the Oilers had drafted any depth they could use those players to improve the team or improve their position at the draft. The owners have no depth, even including McDavid, they can't make any deals of consequence that could improve the team without crippling the future.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by New Era

It's kind of embarrassing that you don't understand the concept being explained. Part of the problem orders face is the fact that they have no reason to be improving at the draft order team on the ice.The Orleans only prospects that they can possibly trade are those the cats afford to lose. If the Oilers had drafted any depth they could use those players to improve the team or improve their position at the draft. The owners have no depth, even including McDavid, they can't make any deals of consequence that could improve the team without crippling the future.

I understand it. I just think people that are trying to compare prospects 10-20 deep and saying this team or that team is better are just being obtuse.

The majority of those propsects don't pan out, and no one can really predict which ones do.

So anyone crowing that their team's prospects are unbelievably deep is almost cetainly just being a homer.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Why even rank McDavid in with EDM's other prospects? He's going straight to the NHL next season.

It's a lot more accurate to evaluate the Oilers prospect pool without him IMO. I would think the same if he was on any other team.