Iginla leads Avs in scoring after 70 games

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Who specifically do you get these feelings from? Which fans in this thread care more about the player then the team?

That's easy. Anyone who hates Iginla less than he does.

That being said, once you peel away the smug, Tinordi's root point isn't really incorrect. Iginla was such a big part of this team that is personality was overbearing. I don't think to the point that if he was still on this team today, that it would have sucked hard (though certain people here no doubt want to believe that). But at the same time, the Flames needed a cultural shift and a fresh start. That isn't an attack on Iginla, simply an acknowledgement that it was time for a new generation to take the lead.

And that is why Iginla wont be coming back, except possibly for a trade-and-retire deal where we give up a 7th rounder with conditions that would be impossible to meet, just so he could officially end his career as a Flame. As an active player though? That ship has sailed.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That being said, once you peel away the smug, Tinordi's root point isn't really incorrect. Iginla was such a big part of this team that is personality was overbearing. I don't think to the point that if he was still on this team today, that it would have sucked hard (though certain people here no doubt want to believe that). But at the same time, the Flames needed a cultural shift and a fresh start. That isn't an attack on Iginla, simply an acknowledgement that it was time for a new generation to take the lead.

I think any level head Flames fan can agree with this. The Flames needed a cultural shift, beyond a doubt.

How that turns into Iginla being a terrible captain, in it for himself, a team cancer --- these are the types of immature comments I expect from the lowest Leaf and Canucks fans --- the type that treat following their team like an episode of TMZ rather than having any grip on reality and depth of understanding about how things work.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And the rest of my comment already undermines the reply you built after reading only the first sentence.

No, I read it all. It just doesn't apply.
Thanks

[ForeverFlameFan]

We're talking about the best player in Flames' history. I'm one of the few that says the ship has not sailed. Iginla hasn't really lost a beat even with age coming to him. He's still played great hockey for a 37 year old because he isn't captain anymore. He has a veteran presence that every team would love to have, including Calgary.

I don't see what's wrong with signing him to a 1-2 year deal after Colorado's contract is up, especially if he hasn't won that cup yet. Both sides are right, we owe nothing to him and he owes nothing to us. But, he spent most of his career here and would surprisingly still fill a need we need: A right wing powerfoward who can chip 15-25 goals. As a contending team, he'd probably be playing 3rd line minutes.

It's not like they are stripping the 'C' from Giordano and handing it back to Iginla. Iginla would be lucky to have an 'A' on his sweater.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Who specifically do you get these feelings from? Which fans in this thread care more about the player then the team?

I think this very thread kind of gives off that impression. This is of coarse just my opinion, but it seems to be more of a "Win a cup for Iggy" rather then "Iggy winning for Calgary" ... this is no knock on Iginla, btw.

If Iginla is still producing as a top 6 forward (on a Stanley Cup competitive team) with a reduced acquisition cost (be it trade in his final year, or contract) then sure, why not. But if he is still competitive, I'll bet he's not looking to sign a bargain contract as thats something he does not historically do, and he has always been a pretty loyal soldier to the NHLPA. And if he is not going to sign a bargain contract, UFA dollars usually are not a good deal, and we probably won't have the cap space to get into a bidding war.

If he is on his last legs, teams simply cannot afford to waste a roster spot on just for a media fairytale swan song. You see it in the death of role of a goon, every roster spot counts. For depth players, speed and physical play are gold in the playoffs. Treliving and Burke have also harped on this many times, we need speed and size; willing to forgo a little of one or the other in special circumstances, like Gaudreau.

The only way I really see Iginla as part of the Flames winning a cup is some sort of management role; knowing the icon he is, I would think some sort of team rep in selling tickets and team rep. (Not that I see that as a career for him post-retirement.)

[Locke]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

We're talking about the best player in Flames' history. I'm one of the few that says the ship has not sailed. Iginla hasn't really lost a beat even with age coming to him. He's still played great hockey for a 37 year old because he isn't captain anymore. He has a veteran presence that every team would love to have, including Calgary.

I don't see what's wrong with signing him to a 1-2 year deal after Colorado's contract is up, especially if he hasn't won that cup yet. Both sides are right, we owe nothing to him and he owes nothing to us. But, he spent most of his career here and would surprisingly still fill a need we need: A right wing powerfoward who can chip 15-25 goals. As a contending team, he'd probably be playing 3rd line minutes.

It's not like they are stripping the 'C' from Giordano and handing it back to Iginla. Iginla would be lucky to have an 'A' on his sweater.

This is where Resolute's point is, you kind of are. Whether or not you actually take it off his jersey Iginla, through no fault of his own, became bigger than the team.

You dont think he would be a distraction?

As for his ability to chip in, I think thats dubious at best. You're guessing where he'll be at in 2 years and where the Flames will be in two years both in terms of personnel and system.

I agree with Resolute, the Iginla on the Flames as a contributing player are over. That ship has indeed sailed.

If, in two years, management decides that we need Iginla on the team to contribute then they'll have failed in a great many categories.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Locke

This is where Resolute's point is, you kind of are. Whether or not you actually take it off his jersey Iginla, through no fault of his own, became bigger than the team.

You dont think he would be a distraction?

As for his ability to chip in, I think thats dubious at best. You're guessing where he'll be at in 2 years and where the Flames will be in two years both in terms of personnel and system.

I agree with Resolute, the Iginla on the Flames as a contributing player are over. That ship has indeed sailed.

If, in two years, management decides that we need Iginla on the team to contribute then they'll have failed in a great many categories.

You are asking a guy how he can talk in absolutes about Iginla's production in the future, but your last sentence is an absolute statement about a future occurrence.

The Iggy ship has sailed in that he's no longer the face, the captain or the best player. What he is though is a player who scored 29 goals this year at age 37. At 40, he may be scoring 10 to 20 goals, which any team would want on a one year deal. His veteran experience is something any GM would want in a playoff run. To say the GM fails if he brings Iginla in can't be proved until the experiment happens. My money is that if Iggy comes back, it will be positive experiment.

When they sign him, they tell him this is how we will use you, and this is how we expect you to play. If you don't like it, don't sign. If you are onboard with these expectations, then we sign you. Simple. He's not going to come in an rewrite the team culture. He is going to be the peripheral player, but a special peripheral player given his Hall of Fame career and connection with Calgary.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

You can't bring in possibly the face of the franchise's history and a former longtime captain and pretend nothing will change or that it wouldn't change the dynamic of the team, especially in the dressing room. That's a big elephant in the room. Love the guy, had an awesome career in Calgary, but that ship has long sailed. This team is finally on the right track, let's not bring back sentimental favorites for the heck of it. Let's continue on the path we're on.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

You can't bring in possibly the face of the franchise's history and a former longtime captain and pretend nothing will change or that it wouldn't change the dynamic of the team, especially in the dressing room. That's a big elephant in the room. Love the guy, had an awesome career in Calgary, but that ship has long sailed. This team is finally on the right track, let's not bring back sentimental favorites for the heck of it. Let's continue on the path we're on.

I would argue it's not for the heck of it. I'd bring him back for the 10 or 20 goals he's likely to pot, and for the young guys he will most likely stick up for and protect in scrums around the net. He'll bring grit, PP specialist, and leadership, much like Malholtra was brought in as a specialist for the Canucks' run.

I think that Iggy has been in the business long enough to know that things can never be the same twice. If he signs, it will be just as though another vet has signed on for a playoff run. It will have special meaning for the fans, but not the players. This is Gio's team, and Iggy would respect that and the young players of today won't magically abandon Gio and his leadership and become Iggy followers.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I would argue it's not for the heck of it. I'd bring him back for the 10 or 20 goals he's likely to pot, and for the young guys he will most likely stick up for and protect in scrums around the net. He'll bring grit, PP specialist, and leadership, much like Malholtra was brought in as a specialist for the Canucks' run.

Off-ice and organizational debate aside, not sure he fits with the on-ice team identity anymore. Hasn't he lost a step or two? Or three.

I guess you could just give him PP minutes and tell him to one-time on his off-wing, like Brett Hull in his twilight years. Really not sure it's worth all the fuss and taking a up a roster spot though.

Tangent - good god I still can't believe Hull scored 86 goals one year.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

You can't bring in possibly the face of the franchise's history and a former longtime captain and pretend nothing will change or that it wouldn't change the dynamic of the team, especially in the dressing room. That's a big elephant in the room. Love the guy, had an awesome career in Calgary, but that ship has long sailed. This team is finally on the right track, let's not bring back sentimental favorites for the heck of it. Let's continue on the path we're on.

I don't really see Iginla as a guy that needs attention. Sure, fans are going to go wild that he is back, but in no means do I think he'd be a locker problem like some of you think. This ship has most definitely sailed with him being our captain, but the ship has not sailed for him to be a great veteran presence.

I'm failing to see a reason why he would be stopping the path that we are on too. I only want him here if he signs a 1 year sweet heart deal, because we should be a cap team within the next few years.

We both have the same goal; chasing a cup.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

You are asking a guy how he can talk in absolutes about Iginla's production in the future, but your last sentence is an absolute statement about a future occurrence.

The Iggy ship has sailed in that he's no longer the face, the captain or the best player. What he is though is a player who scored 29 goals this year at age 37. At 40, he may be scoring 10 to 20 goals, which any team would want on a one year deal. His veteran experience is something any GM would want in a playoff run. To say the GM fails if he brings Iginla in can't be proved until the experiment happens. My money is that if Iggy comes back, it will be positive experiment.

When they sign him, they tell him this is how we will use you, and this is how we expect you to play. If you don't like it, don't sign. If you are onboard with these expectations, then we sign you. Simple. He's not going to come in an rewrite the team culture. He is going to be the peripheral player, but a special peripheral player given his Hall of Fame career and connection with Calgary.

But he cant be those things. You cant have a guy scoring 20 goals (for arguments sake) on the 3rd or 4th line.

He has to play top 6 minutes in order to produce anything and as such you are giving him those minutes rather than making him earn them. You cant throw him on the bottom 6 and expect him to contribute in any meaningful capacity and by giving him those minutes and having him in the dressing room you're changing the dynamic.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I would argue it's not for the heck of it. I'd bring him back for the 10 or 20 goals he's likely to pot, and for the young guys he will most likely stick up for and protect in scrums around the net. He'll bring grit, PP specialist, and leadership, much like Malholtra was brought in as a specialist for the Canucks' run.

I think that Iggy has been in the business long enough to know that things can never be the same twice. If he signs, it will be just as though another vet has signed on for a playoff run. It will have special meaning for the fans, but not the players. This is Gio's team, and Iggy would respect that and the young players of today won't magically abandon Gio and his leadership and become Iggy followers.

See my points above. In Calgary he wouldnt be just another vet signing up for a run. And if its 5-10 goals you want he cant be on the 3rd or 4th line. So now you've handed a prime spot to a vet in place of someone earning it.

Darryl? Is that you?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Locke

But he cant be those things. You cant have a guy scoring 20 goals (for arguments sake) on the 3rd or 4th line.

What Locke said. If Iginla is on the 3rd like, he's not going to produce the same way he would on the 1st line - his minutes will get cut, he won't get his "No 1 C" et al.

Also - if Iginla is scoring 20 goals, he isn't going to sign for a 3rd/4th line contract, he'll still probably chase $4M+ for as long of a term that someone will give him.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

What Locke said. If Iginla is on the 3rd like, he's not going to produce the same way he would on the 1st line - his minutes will get cut, he won't get his "No 1 C" et al.

Also - if Iginla is scoring 20 goals, he isn't going to sign for a 3rd/4th line contract, he'll still probably chase $4M+ for as long of a term that someone will give him.

And if that's what he wants, it won't be with us. I'd only take him if it was a 1 x 3m, something along those lines. Would only want him if he took a pay cut and was accepting a lesser role.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

What Locke said. If Iginla is on the 3rd like, he's not going to produce the same way he would on the 1st line - his minutes will get cut, he won't get his "No 1 C" et al.

Also - if Iginla is scoring 20 goals, he isn't going to sign for a 3rd/4th line contract, he'll still probably chase $4M+ for as long of a term that someone will give him.

I for one would never offer a 40 year old player a multi year deal, so I'd be shocked if someone did.

And I don't think Iggy expects he'll be on ANY teams 1st line at the age of 40.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

You can't bring in possibly the face of the franchise's history and a former longtime captain and pretend nothing will change or that it wouldn't change the dynamic of the team, especially in the dressing room. That's a big elephant in the room. Love the guy, had an awesome career in Calgary, but that ship has long sailed. This team is finally on the right track, let's not bring back sentimental favorites for the heck of it. Let's continue on the path we're on.

I agree, however for arguments sake: It has already been over two years since Iginla left. His contract will be expiring in two more. Four years down the road, there will be almost nobody left connected to Iggy. The young players will all identify with the current leadership core.

If you're a Flames team at the 2017 trade deadline with aspirations of making a run, and you need a right winger who can offer some offensive punch, and Jarome Iginla is still capable of providing it, then you have to look at that as a hockey decision first and foremost.

The fans would go bonkers, of course, and the media would be all over it. But the locker room would pretty much view him as a rental at that point, I think. Doesn't mean you can ignore the circus his return would cause, only that Iginla's presence wouldn't be the dominating force it was previously.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I agree, however for arguments sake: It has already been over two years since Iginla left. His contract will be expiring in two more. Four years down the road, there will be almost nobody left connected to Iggy. The young players will all identify with the current leadership core.

If you're a Flames team at the 2017 trade deadline with aspirations of making a run, and you need a right winger who can offer some offensive punch, and Jarome Iginla is still capable of providing it, then you have to look at that as a hockey decision first and foremost.

The fans would go bonkers, of course, and the media would be all over it. But the locker room would pretty much view him as a rental at that point, I think. Doesn't mean you can ignore the circus his return would cause, only that Iginla's presence wouldn't be the dominating force it was previously.

Pretty much how I am seeing it. He's already been to 3 teams since being traded from us and has taken a lesser role on each and every single one. If you rely on him to be your primary scorer, then you're in trouble. He's not the same player as what he was 5 years ago. But, he still is a great player for his age and is a great add on any team that wants to make a run in the playoffs.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

What Locke said. If Iginla is on the 3rd like, he's not going to produce the same way he would on the 1st line - his minutes will get cut, he won't get his "No 1 C" et al.

Also - if Iginla is scoring 20 goals, he isn't going to sign for a 3rd/4th line contract, he'll still probably chase $4M+ for as long of a term that someone will give him.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I agree, however for arguments sake: It has already been over two years since Iginla left. His contract will be expiring in two more. Four years down the road, there will be almost nobody left connected to Iggy. The young players will all identify with the current leadership core.

If you're a Flames team at the 2017 trade deadline with aspirations of making a run, and you need a right winger who can offer some offensive punch, and Jarome Iginla is still capable of providing it, then you have to look at that as a hockey decision first and foremost.

The fans would go bonkers, of course, and the media would be all over it. But the locker room would pretty much view him as a rental at that point, I think. Doesn't mean you can ignore the circus his return would cause, only that Iginla's presence wouldn't be the dominating force it was previously.

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Pretty much how I am seeing it. He's already been to 3 teams since being traded from us and has taken a lesser role on each and every single one. If you rely on him to be your primary scorer, then you're in trouble. He's not the same player as what he was 5 years ago. But, he still is a great player for his age and is a great add on any team that wants to make a run in the playoffs.

I guess my real issue is that if Iggy isnt scoring then he isnt bringing anything else either. Hes not going to go out there at 40 and crash and bang, hes too slow for a really effective forecheck and he isnt killing penalties.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

His face is all over the arena. Doesn't matter if there are different players on the team in 2 years. Everybody knows who is he and what he meant to the team previously. There is no way he could come back and fly under the radar as some complimentary player. And it's not his fault. Even if he came back with the best of intentions the dynamics of the team would change. I know it would be a neat story but I don't think it would be worth the risk imo. And that's not even taking into consideration how his skills will deterioate by that time.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I for one would never offer a 40 year old player a multi year deal, so I'd be shocked if someone did.

And I don't think Iggy expects he'll be on ANY teams 1st line at the age of 40.

If he is on a 1 year deal, I think he'll be between $4-5M (i.e. typical UFA dollars) for a player of his production, ilk and reputation - somebody is gonna pay. Maybe a young rebuilding team that wants his leadership.

What I guess I'm trying to say is... Iginla is, and always has, gone for market value and looks for stability. I think he's loyal when he's around, but I don't see why he would give the Flames any kind of special discount for a fairytale swan song - he's moved on.

And personally, I just don't think UFA's are worth it - they always get paid very well, unless they are some sort of reclaimation project like Setoguchi. Those dollars are probably better kept for trade deadline acquisitions, and those roster spots I'd rather see what guys like Poirer, Colbourne, Shore et al can do.