[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[bob-loblaw]

I will be surprised if he becomes a top six like Vancouver thinks he will. I can't say that I'm shocked he asked for a trade either - there were numerous reports about attitude issues over the past few years.

We have younger guys that have passed him already and are getting call ups. I heard Ken Holland on FAN 960 this morning saying they traded some guys in their system to give them a chance somewhere else because they weren't going to do it in Detroit. That happened with Sven so Treliving cut his losses especially being forced with a trade request.

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Lol, while I wouldn't go that far it's not like I was attached to the guy in a Flames jersey...he was a prospect that didn't work out not Regehr, Iginla, Fleury.

True, but saying "Trade me or I'm not re-signing" is a big disrespect to this organization.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Why are people committed to this idea that Sven was "thrown off his game"? It's revisionist history.

I said 'if'.

There were comments about Burke's comments being negative towards Sven, I'm saying those comments were tame.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

True, but saying "Trade me or I'm not re-signing" is a big disrespect to this organization.

I disagree especially after Treliving basically said this is pretty common.

But we don't have to agree....not sad he's gone but not bitter about it.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by snowball

I think you're guilty of remembering only the negative cuz he wasn't in the minors for the entire back half of that season. After the trade deadline, he was brought back up and ended up with 9 points in his final 7 games. Things were looking up. Then Burke happened.

Not selective memory at all. He spent the bulk of the back half of that season on the farm, and the point remains regardless. That is where his drop in performance began, that is where his disgruntled view on how his handling began, which was well before Burke even joined the org or even made his comments. Which is not how the Sven fan boys / Burke haters would have you believe it went down.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by snowball

I think you're guilty of remembering only the negative cuz he wasn't in the minors for the entire back half of that season. After the trade deadline, he was brought back up and ended up with 9 points in his final 7 games. Things were looking up. Then Burke happened.

No. After the season there were lots of rumours floating around that Baertschi was upset about his inclusion in summer development camp, and being sent to the rookie tournament in Penticton. He performed very poorly in Penticton, and long before Burke ever entered the scene.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think people just look at PPG averages and roll off the assumption no progress was made in other aspects of the game.

Sven has nothing except for point production. If he's not producing, he's not effective. The Flames were patient with him, asking him to round out his game so even if he's not producing he can still contribute. They judged he wasn't able to do so.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by heep223

Sven has nothing except for point production. If he's not producing, he's not effective. The Flames were patient with him, asking him to round out his game so even if he's not producing he can still contribute. They judged he wasn't able to do so.

I'll take that one step further because you know some will read that and go "they tried to change his game" which isn't the case. What they asked Sven to do, is reach the minimal level of competence required outside of putting up points, at the other aspects of the game. They've done no different with JG this year, they haven't tried to change his game, but they've required him to out up a minimum standard (at least) in all other aspects of the game. JG has managed to do that and still put up points.

Sven to his credit also managed to meet those standards, but at the complete cost of his offence, which makes him useless. And thats the problem. Sven has yet to show he can play the game at a minimal NHL level and still score points. He can either put up points and suck at the rest, or manage the rest and dry up offendively. If he makes it, it will be because he finally puts it together, not something he ever did here.

[Dajazz]

Originally Posted by FAN

As far as I am concerned, in terms of player development and motivating a player, the key is finding the right way to motivate a player. The best coaches in sports often talk about managing people. Since Babcock has been mentioned, he's been quoted as saying that he's been particularly hard on Tatar because he knows he can take it.


But before calling Hudler out, Babcock had praised Hudler previously. And Holland comments on the positives and negatives without focusing on the negatives. The difference is in the delivery. The way Babcock and Holland do it is that hey this player has so much potential, he just needs to improve this and that or why can't he do this every night? The way Burke does it is, this guy shows flashes of brilliance but that's not going to cut it in this league.




And Burke chose the wrong way to motivate this particular player. That's the thing with Burke. He has one way of doing things. There are players he likes and gets his support. There are players he dislike and it's hard to gain his support.

You'er missing one big point, the main point. Sven has had four professional coaches, all of them seem to have the same opinion. Before, during and after Burke's comments, completely independent of Burke they've said: good kid, good talent, lack of consistency.

He's barely made any progress since being drafted, I doubt all of these people are stupid (Burke, Hartley, Treliving, Huska, Ward, Weisbrod, Conroy etc etc). They all say the same thing, even posters who follow the heat and have talked to him say this.

Lets call a spade a spade. The kid has talent but lacks another gear.

[Krule]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I'll take that one step further because you know some will read that and go "they tried to change his game" which isn't the case. What they asked Sven to do, is reach the minimal level of competence required outside of putting up points, at the other aspects of the game. They've done no different with JG this year, they haven't tried to change his game, but they've required him to out up a minimum standard (at least) in all other aspects of the game. JG has managed to do that and still put up points.

Sven to his credit also managed to meet those standards, but at the complete cost of his offence, which makes him useless. And thats the problem. Sven has yet to show he can play the game at a minimal NHL level and still score points. He can either put up points and suck at the rest, or manage the rest and dry up offendively. If he makes it, it will be because he finally puts it together, not something he ever did here.

^^^This. I have never seen a complete 2-way game from him. He's still young and can learn, but will he? The time to move on came and a deal was struck. I suspect he won't be any better in Vancouver which will make this a "win" deal for the Flames.

[powderjunkie]

Wouldn't be surprised if he turns into a St. Louis or Savard...but as in those cases I don't think it would happen here if they stayed.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Wouldn't be surprised if he turns into a St. Louis or Savard...but as in those cases I don't think it would happen here if they stayed.

Marc Savard was well on his way to being a #1C already, he just needed someone to straighten him out instead of being a meathead like Dilbert was.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Wouldn't be surprised if he turns into a St. Louis or Savard...but as in those cases I don't think it would happen here if they stayed.

And this is why, outside of the Fanboyism that exists is the main reason why Flames fans might not love this deal.

The chances that Vancouver hits a home run out of this trade IMO is higher than the chances the Flames do. What I mean by that, is it is more likely that Sven puts it together with the change of scenery and becomes an impact / difference making player for the Canucks than it is the Flames select such a player with this 2nd round pick. However, I don't believe that either of those scenario's is likely.

Highest likely outcome is that this ends up being nothing more than a minor trade involving at best a couple of average assets. And as it sits now, I think this deal is slightly in favour of the Flames (and I do mean slightly) that the 2nd round pick becomes a better asset than Sven moving forward.

So, I think the Flames have the highest likely hood of winning what will be a minor deal, and the win isn't that big. But the Canucks have the better chance at hitting a home run with this than the Flames do.

[Mony]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Put me in the camp that has no regard for Sven anymore. I hope if he ever makes it back to the dome he gets booed by the crowd. Yes the Flames are to blame for this whole situation but Sven owns most of this himself

I don't think he deserves to be booed. Kristen Odland, who's a sports reporter for the Herald tweeted this a few days ago,

"Just got off the phone w/Baertschi who did not have one negative thing to say about #Flames organization. Thanked fans for supporting him."

Like I said before, his development could've been handled better by both parties, but Sven found himself in a situation where he was spinning his wheels, the Flames found themselves in a situation where they were spinning their wheels and it seemed to reach a point where Sven wasn't going to become a staple in this organization. So Sven did what he had to do and asked for the trade, and it seemed as if this was months in advance. He allowed the Flames to at least get an asset for him.

This is not Tim Erixon.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Marc Savard was well on his way to being a #1C already, he just needed someone to straighten him out instead of being a meathead like Dilbert was.

Yeah, Savard was already a pretty good NHL player when he was traded and it wasn't a shock to most people to see him get better. It surprised some people when his attitude improved, but certainly not that he had a great career.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The one thing I really love about Hartley is how he allows the players to create offence any way they wish. He doesn't stifle their creativity. Remember when Gaudreau turned that puck over at the opposition's blue line resulting in a goal against? Hartley was ok with it. Encouraged Gaudreau to keep doing it. However, if it starts happening often, Hartley will pull the reigns in a bit.

Baertschi had full freedom to create out there. Nobody was trying to stifle him or change his game completely.

What does Hartley demand in return for having all this freedom to create? You better compete hard and you better hustle back on defence. I think the best Baertschi played all season - and probably last season as well - was when Hartley threw Baertschi on the Byron/Jooris line. Two guys with non-stop hustle helped to force Baertschi to compete hard, and he looked good out there! He just didn't keep himself at that level, and eventually got demoted again.

I think it is really easy to please Hartley - create offence by doing what you are good at, but just hustle back on defence, get in proper positioning, and compete hard whenever you step foot on the ice.

Setoguchi didn't produce. No one is going to argue that he was anything other than a possible reclamation project, and added another body for someone to compete against. Also, I don't think that anyone will dispute the fact that Setoguchi played really hard - he just wasn't an NHL player any longer it seems. The effort seemed to always be there.

How many games did he get? Was it more or less than Baertschi?

Setoguchi got demoted after 12 games (well, 12 games + a bunch of time being a healthy scratch, but point is he only got 12 games in). Baertschi got in 15. I myself thought Setoguchi played more games than Baertschi. In retrospect, Baertschi had a bit longer of a rope it seems.

I don't think the real argument is "How can Baertschi produce playing 4th line minutes". The Flames know that it is tough to produce on the 4th line. We as fans know this, and I guarantee this doesn't come as a surprise to Hartley and management. I believe point production wasn't the determining factor. I believe Sven's compete level, effort and systems play were the criteria he was being judged on - the same criteria I would assume every player in that position is judged on. Outside of a handful of games - namely when he was thrown with Byron and Jooris - you just didn't see that in his game often enough.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by TBone290

looks so unnatural

First Monahan, now Baertschi. Vancouver is trying to build their own Calgary Flames team.

http://canucks.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=60417

Director, Business Development


Sean Monahan is Director of Business Development for Canucks Sports & Entertainment. In his current role, Monahan is responsible for maintaining and growing existing partnerships with corporate partners and developing new activations with sponsors.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

You'er missing one big point, the main point. Sven has had four professional coaches, all of them seem to have the same opinion. Before, during and after Burke's comments, completely independent of Burke they've said: good kid, good talent, lack of consistency.

Huh? Your one big point / your main point basically describes a young player. Consistently (especially in effort) is likely the most common and important attribute a player, especially a finesse typed skilled player, needs to learn in order to play in the NHL.

Some players get it and manage to put it all together. For example, Olli Jokinen was a guy who got it 5 years into his NHL career and eliminated his bust labels. Some players don't or at least only for a season or two (e.g. Alexandre Daigle).

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Setoguchi got demoted after 12 games (well, 12 games + a bunch of time being a healthy scratch, but point is he only got 12 games in). Baertschi got in 15. I myself thought Setoguchi played more games than Baertschi. In retrospect, Baertschi had a bit longer of a rope it seems.

Baertschi was demoted 3 times this season, Setoguchi got paid NHL money 14 times in the pressbox before they finally admitted it was a bad signing.

To even suggest Baertschi had a long rope on this team is laughable. Baertschi outplayed Setoguchi right from training camp.

"earned never giving" is a big steaming pile of

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Honest question everyone: Can this thread die now please? Both camps, please agree to disagree.