Prentice Blames Albertans

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It is kind of like Kevin Lowe blaming the fans for the state of the Oilers. Yes, the fans bear some responsibility because they keep showing up and handing over their money, but the ultimate fault lies with management.

So when the people at the root of the problem start blaming others for their own mistakes, that rubs people the wrong way. And the longer Prentice's lackeys keep trying to argue this is overblown or that it was taken out of context, the longer it is going to be a story.

Great analogy.

Kevin Lowe is the Alberta PC Party, MacT is the Wildrose.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Great analogy.

Kevin Lowe is the Alberta PC Party, MacT is the Wildrose.

Brian Burke for Premier.

[polak]

Originally Posted by terminator

I understand Polak's position, when infact teachers failed him.

Sick beak bro.

[V]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

$90k within ten years is not some spectacular feat. A ten year professional in the private sector can (and should) be able to make far more than that.

Not everyone works in Oil and Gas. $90k in 10 years is nothing to sneeze (or whine) at. Over 90% of the unionized employees at my company of over 3,000 people make that or less at their absolute max. And it takes them much more than 10 years to get there. A lot of them have 2 year diplomas, and not a four year degree, but they are still highly technical and trained in their field.

I don't even think that teachers are overpaid. I think they're paid just fine. It's just the bloody whining you hear from so many of them that drives me nuts. It's a good gig. There are issues with it, just like every other job you can think of. Don't think you're so special.

My Dad teaches high school and my brother teaches grade 5, primarily. He also coaches the high school basketball team. Of course, he did that before he was a teacher, so I'm not sure it fits into the work category.

Oh, and since when is 6 years of university required to become a teacher? I saw that mentioned in the thread earlier.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Didn't the wildrose form very shortly after the alberta royalty review?

Didn't wild roses' outspoken opposition to raising the royalty rates cower the government into lowering them? Didn't the Wild Rose suggest that citizens should get a resource royalty refund cheque? It looks like they did.

So you blame the Wildrose for our fiscal mess? gotcha.

[Resolute 14]

No Slava, you don't get to be two-faced about that. You can't crow that Wildrose didn't deserve to be voted in because of the myriad boogeymen you've argued in the past and then turn around and blame the same people for not voting in Wildrose. And before you protest about other parties, we both know the Liberals and NDP are, were, and for the forseable future will be, marginal.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jacks

So you blame the Wildrose for our fiscal mess? gotcha.

Given the above post, lets just say Flash is more interested in being a troll right now than in engaging in debate. Though it is cute that he is trying to blame a party that, at the time, was miniscule and marginal for scaring the big, bad Tories. That is some mighty impressive revisionist history.

I would suggest the very loud rhetoric from the O&G industry about halting production and the impact that would have had on government revenues played a much bigger role.

Also, Flash, MacTavish and Lowe are on the same team. So Prentice is Lowe, Mandel is MacTavish.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Slava

I haven't been a PC supporter but I think Prentice is bang on here. We have basically had the luxury of not paying enough taxes and relied upon resource revenue to fund our programs. When other parties have suggested otherwise, we've either ignored them or just laughed because we would never vote for them. We have no one else to blame for this IMO, and I obviously would prefer not to pay more taxes.

I would prefer our govt put away money each year for when we have down turns in our economy like we have now. The fact the PC party didn't is part of the reason why we are in the situation.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by polak

Oh this I agree with. I've heard the horror stories. But thats exactly it! That proves my point. If teaching is such a terrible job, then why are there almost no free vacancies? My one friend who works in one of the poorest districts in Edmonton is ridiculously grateful.

There are legitmate complaints such as not having enough aides to help with kids who have developmental disabilities. To suggest one should just quit is ridiculous.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

No Slava, you don't get to be two-faced about that. You can't crow that Wildrose didn't deserve to be voted in because of the myriad boogeymen you've argued in the past and then turn around and blame the same people for not voting in Wildrose. And before you protest about other parties, we both know the Liberals and NDP are, were, and for the forseable future will be, marginal.

Why not? Just because the only opposition party you've ever supported turned out to literally be an opposition party in name only doesn't mean there were no other options. I think that the fact that no credible opposition actually came into being over four decades shows that people were largely on board with the actions of the PC's. If they weren't we would have seen something come along that posed a serious threat.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Given the above post, lets just say Flash is more interested in being a troll right now than in engaging in debate. Though it is cute that he is trying to blame a party that, at the time, was miniscule and marginal for scaring the big, bad Tories. That is some mighty impressive revisionist history.

I'm not interested in your kind of partisan, insult laden debate.

The Wildrose party was founded shortly after the Stelmach government began reviewing the royalty rates. This is not a coincidence.

The Wildrose juggernaut that now threatens to bring down the Tory dynasty was painstakingly constructed over the past five years by disaffected blue Tories, with help from key strategists allied with Stephen Harper’s federal Conservatives.

While the party’s surge in the polls might seem to have come out of nowhere, its backers have been carefully setting the stage for the Wildrose ascendance for more than five years.

The movement began in earnest in 2007, when former premier Ed Stelmach announced an independent review of oil and gas royalties.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/04...s-experts-say/

Soon after becoming Premier, Ed Stelmach launched a review of oil and gas royalties in the province. When the final report was released in the Fall of 2007 – called Our Fair Share - Stelmach announced that he would be increasing royalties to acquire an additional $1.4 billion a year. This decision created quite a backlash from the oil and gas sector. This backlash manifested itself in many ways.

First, it led to many Tories staying home in the March 2008 election. This did not seem too important at the time, as the Progressive Conservatives still won an overwhelming majority. Nevertheless, it did provide an indication that something was amiss within the PC ranks.

Second, there were growing numbers of individuals, some of them high-profile, who defected from the Progressive Conservative party to the Wildrose party.

Third, it set the stage for Paul Hinman’s by-election victory in Calgary-Glenmore in Fall of 2009 with his slogan of “Send Ed a Message.”

Fourth, and much more importantly, Wildrose started to receive some heavy donations from individuals and corporations within the oil and gas sector.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...se-of-wildrose

Formed by disaffected wealthy conservatives, a further right political party was established to attack Stelmach and eventually defeat his royalty rate increase. Raising royalties on energy companies during an an energy price boom is economic common sense, but Wildrose ideology (or, political ideology being influenced by money) forced the issue the other way, further contributing to the current economic conditions in the province. Now, of course, that position is politically untenable for PC leadership, especially during a bust period. Wildrose very effectively worsened the economic conditions in the province by scaring the sitting PC government into backing off from raising the royalty rate.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I would suggest the very loud rhetoric from the O&G industry about halting production and the impact that would have had on government revenues played a much bigger role.

See above for why these are one and the same.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Also, Flash, MacTavish and Lowe are on the same team. So Prentice is Lowe, Mandel is MacTavish.

Prentice is Lowe, MacT is Danielle Smith. They are on the same team, after all.

Originally Posted by Jacks;

So you blame the Wildrose for our fiscal mess? gotcha.

They've certainly contributed by offering even more extremely conservative solutions to problems created by conservative policies. Like I said before, it's akin to digging up to dig yourself out of a hole.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Slava

I saw that earlier in the thread and its not a completely accurate analogy. In this case you had opposition parties crying foul and pressing for increased savings and taxes. People frankly didn't want to go that route; they voted PC en masse and probably even included you! The fact is that people continued to vote for the party that was best for their wallet and someone had to pay. In order to do that we were relying on resource revenue, and eventually that's not sustainable. The citizens of Alberta all shared in the benefit of lower taxes for decades, hence it's not really a government issue.

I think its amusing that the opposition parties are all saying it was the Tory mismanagement that has done this. Its not. The citizens not only didn't vote anyone else in, they weren't even close to doing so. No one took the threat of decreased oil and gas revenues seriously enough to do anything about it.

Overall the opposition is in shambles with how their reacting to Prentice I think. They're suggesting that problem isn't the people and that the government should take the blame on one hand, and then on the other they're suggesting cuts and increased revenue. So basically they're advocating the same thing. They were first upset that Prentice was not elected and had no mandate, but now he plans to hold and election and basically destroy them, so holding an election is somehow undemocratic. It's just a mess.

Ehhh, it's so easy to say that. In fact what opposition party WOULDN'T say that? I have a real hard time believing any opposition would have been better. And that isn't PC voter guilt taking, as I voted some Lib too. Of course, Wildrose supporters would say the same about that vote. There's no winner here. _People are going to point the finger. I'm figuring I'd get the same 'oh great, tax and spend liberals' comments I usually do, even though, that wasn't their position.

Nothing that I saw in the Wildrose platform or budget gave me confidence that they were any better or had a better grasp on the situation.

I like Resolute's analogy. Yes, it's all of our problems, but not only is the statement Prentice made extremely bad optics, it's ignoring some of the biggest issues, and simply just pointing fingers.

[1stLand]

I dont care if Prentice Blames Alberta for this mess.
I dont want Wildrose to get voted in because they dont support Gay Straight Alliances, and lets face it, based on my liberal parenting philosophies, one of my kids is bound to turn out gay and get bullied at school.

I'll gladly take the blame for the mess the provinces finances are in.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

They've certainly contributed by offering even more extremely conservative solutions to problems created by conservative policies. Like I said before, it's akin to digging up to dig yourself out of a hole.

Such garbage. Conservative solutions are what got us out of debt and built up our savings. The rise of the Wildrose party shows that many people clearly wanted controlled spending and no deficit.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Such garbage. Conservative solutions are what got us out of debt and built up our savings. The rise of the Wildrose party shows that many people clearly wanted controlled spending and no deficit.

And Dani dollars, lets not forget the Dani-dollars!

Its funny though because we've only had conservative policies of one form or another, they have to take both the credit and the blame. You can't absolve these policies because at one time (which just happened to coincide with a boom in resource revenues) the province had balanced books. Look back to the conservative policies of Don Getty and right on through with Stelmach because those were all conservative policies as well.

[Daradon]

Which is kinda why I'm saying, we need a new paradigm to figure out. Dunno how that is accomplished. It's gonna be a lot of work. And it's going to take some new people with new ideas. It's going to take an honest look on how the oilpatch should factor in, which a lot of people aren't going to like I imagine. (And please don't take that as I'm blaming anyone in the oil industry, just that we need to figure out this boom bust cycle that's just killing us.)

But to simply lay blame, and look just at spending and cuts keeps us exactly in the same paradigm we've been in for 30 years and longer.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm not interested in your kind of partisan, insult laden debate.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Slava

And Dani dollars, lets not forget the Dani-dollars!

Stupid policy but in all fairness that promise was for when we had no deficit and if I remember right they were also proposing putting money into the Heritage Fund and infrastructure at the same time. Doesn't matter anyway, they weren't elected.

Originally Posted by Slava

You can't absolve these policies because at one time (which just happened to coincide with a boom in resource revenues) the province had balanced books.

The books were balanced by Klein when resource revenues were a fraction of what they were when we went back into deficit. Stelmach and Redford did not practice Conservative fiscal policies. Getty was a joke and almost lost the dynasty before Klein took over.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Such garbage. Conservative solutions are what got us out of debt and built up our savings. The rise of the Wildrose party shows that many people clearly wanted controlled spending and no deficit.

Well look, this is easy, I just gave you my opinion, supported with context to establish a timeline.

If it's garbage, show me how. Calling it garbage doesn't explain to me how it is.

A political platitude like 'controlled spending and no deficit' doesn't tell me a whole lot. Showing how they achieved a reduction in oil royalties to the province, to the tune of $1.4 billion dollars, per year, since 2008, explains how they've made the province's finances worse.

Giving each Albertan $300 may have been a nifty way to buy votes, but it's bad economic policy, without a right or left bias. This is another concrete example we have of ways Wildrose does economic business and why, despite an empty partisan assertion to the contrary, things would have been handled worse by the opposition party.

Rival parties accused Wildrose Leader Danielle Smith of trying to buy votes Monday with a new promise to return a portion of the province’s surplus oil and gas revenue to taxpayers.

The plan, which Smith estimated could provide every Albertan with a $300 cheque as early as 2015, is already being called “Danielle dollars” – harkening back to the controversial “Ralph bucks” scheme that former premier Ralph Klein pursued in 2006.

NDP Leader Brian Mason called it an “election stunt,” while Liberal counterpart Raj Sherman said the move shows the Wildorse has no real idea how to manage the province’s wealth.

“It is a repeat of an old trick of Ralph Klein’s to pass people’s money back to them,” Mason said. “It is giving this generation benefit of the oilsands rather than future generations. We would prefer to see that money invested.”

Klein’s initiative, which provided $400 was lauded by many, but also heavily-criticized by those who said it showed a lack of planning amid the resource boom. Critics suggested much of the money wound up being wasted on electronics and other trinkets, when it should have been put in a government savings account or spent on schools or health facilities.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ielle-dollars/

Aren't we all bemoaning in here about how the province isn't prepared to deal with a drop in oil prices? And Danielle Smith wants to give a portion of that oil royalty revenue (that they campaigned against and succeeded in reducing) directly to citizens now in a sum that is largely a pittance amount to the average family? For a game in the nosebleeds for a family of 4? This is a component of grand economic scheme that is going to help contribute to getting the books back in the black?

I mean, the economic strategy of the opposition was to lower royalty rates in a huge boom period. That about sums up the economics of it, I think.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is another concrete example we have of ways Wildrose does economic business and why, despite an empty partisan assertion to the contrary, things would have been handled worse by the opposition party.

Wildrose blah blah blah. The PC's have had full control for over 40 years. We have no idea how an opposition party would have handled the economy because they've never even come close to power. I'm not about to start chasing statistics for you, if you want to blame the Wildrose and give the PC's a pass that's your choice.