[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Even when Baertschi had the game where he had two primary assists, he barely got any ice time in the third period. He was one of the better Flames that game.

I think a lot of people need to stop believing that coaches don't pick favorites. Even the best coaches in the league prefer one player over another for a myriad of reasons beyond just their play on the ice.

I actually agree with you, they do, and very possible that Sven wasn't on Hartley's top list. But I'll call the pro Sven crowd also needs to stop pretending that since his first 5 game stint, Sven ever distinguished himself from any of his peers. He didn't, certainly not with any sort of re-occurence. The list is long of players from the farm that simply preformed better than him during call ups, with pretty similar opportunities.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Even when Baertschi had the game where he had two primary assists, he barely got any ice time in the third period. He was one of the better Flames that game.

I think a lot of people need to stop believing that coaches don't pick favorites. Even the best coaches in the league prefer one player over another for a myriad of reasons beyond just their play on the ice.

Sure. But that doesn't change the fact that Baertschi never looked like more than a very average player this year. He had a very good game—most players do here and there. It would have been really nice to see him string together a few like it.

[Red John]

It's actually really interesting seeing the evolution that is happening in Vancouver and how eerily similar it is to Sutter's years in Calgary.

They keep trading 2nds for warm bodies and on the radio had Jim Benning on. He kept talking about how instead of waiting 3-4 years for that draft pick to pan out they were setting the clock forward and getting the player sooner.

This is exactly the rationale Flames fans were using to justify Sutter trading 2nds and it ended up being pretty faulty.

The main difference here is Vancouver is trading those picks for Baertschi and Linden Vey (younger guys) whereas Sutter traded them for Marcus Nilson and Rene Bourque.

What was interesting is that Benning never mentioned anything about Baertschi clearing waivers next year and the guys on the radio didn't even know about it until a caller brought it up.

Talk about not doing your homework. Baertschi basically has one shot at making the canucks top-6 out of camp next year or the team threw a 2nd away for nothing. Given his body of work, Baertschi's odds of succeeding are probably equal to or lower than the odds the Flames procure a NHL player out of the pick (1 in 3).

Pretty great trade for the Flames when you look at it that way.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

In my opinion, Sven's leash was short for reasons I haven't figured out or am aware of.

Textcritic stole my thunder, but I'm not sure it was any different for any other young player. Sven had a few ok shifts during some games, and that was about it. He never had a 1st period where you thought to yourself 'this is the game Sven breaks out'. He was just........there. Look at a guy like Jooris. Do you think he had a longer leash? If anything it was the same or shorter, but he absolutely forced the team to keep him around. If Sven had that same mindset he'd still be around, too. He just didn't make a good enough case for himself, and I cannot put any blame on the coaches for that.

[SuperMatt18]

In the end I think Baertschi is an example of how to waste a top prospect, from both the prospect and team perspective.

Baertschi...entitlement issues, poor attitude etc

Feaster...rushing a prospect, making him the heir apparent

Burke...not understanding Sven and criticizing him in the media

Hartley...not giving a player the ability to sink/swim, too short of a leash

Looking back this was handled poorly by all involved and it is a shame because the kid looked like a true blue chipper as a 19 year old. I actually felt like Treliving was trying to fix the sins of the past, in the public eye at least, and in the end the relationship was just too fractured to save.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Sure. But that doesn't change the fact that Baertschi never looked like more than a very average player this year. He had a very good game—most players do here and there. It would have been really nice to see him string together a few like it.

And a game where he was feeling it - even if you think he wasn't showing it often enough - is when I believe he should have been given more responsibility.

There was nothing else Baertschi could have done that game for Hartley. He probably shouldn't have even dressed if that was the case.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by debil

Someone should be fired for this. bartschi is second 1st round pick leaving this organization. this is huge mismanagement of young prospects. bartschi is still first round talent that was really not given enough chances.

The jury's still out on Sven but Tom is looking like a bust. So who cares? The GMs that drafted those two were both fired.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Textcritic stole my thunder, but I'm not sure it was any different for any other young player. Sven had a few ok shifts during some games, and that was about it. He never had a 1st period where you thought to yourself 'this is the game Sven breaks out'. He was just........there. Look at a guy like Jooris. Do you think he had a longer leash? If anything it was the same or shorter, but he absolutely forced the team to keep him around. If Sven had that same mindset he'd still be around, too. He just didn't make a good enough case for himself, and I cannot put any blame on the coaches for that.

I think this as well. Pretty much every young/new guy (Wolf, Ferland, yes, even Gaudreau) were basically stapled to the bench in the 3rd at the start of their careers. Harltley is, you know, actually trying to win games and I don't see how Sven distinguished himself to earn that ice time in crunch time.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Red John

It's actually really interesting seeing the evolution that is happening in Vancouver and how eerily similar it is to Sutter's years in Calgary.

They keep trading 2nds for warm bodies and on the radio had Jim Benning on. He kept talking about how instead of waiting 3-4 years for that draft pick to pan out they were setting the clock forward and getting the player sooner.

This is exactly the rationale Flames fans were using to justify Sutter trading 2nds and it ended up being pretty faulty.

The main difference here is Vancouver is trading those picks for Baertschi and Linden Vey (younger guys) whereas Sutter traded them for Marcus Nilson and Rene Bourque.

What was interesting is that Benning never mentioned anything about Baertschi clearing waivers next year and the guys on the radio didn't even know about it until a caller brought it up.

Talk about not doing your homework. Baertschi basically has one shot at making the canucks top-6 out of camp next year or the team threw a 2nd away for nothing. Given his body of work, Baertschi's odds of succeeding are probably equal to or lower than the odds the Flames procure a NHL player out of the pick (1 in 3).

Pretty great trade for the Flames when you look at it that way.

Yeah I really wonder if Benning has not followed Baertschi since his junior days. I watched his press conference and he made some comment about not knowing what happened in Calgary. Canuck people keep on bringing up that connection to their AHL coach who coached him in junior... It's like no one in Vancouver has kept tabs on him since 2011.

[ah123]

Originally Posted by Red John

Talk about not doing your homework. Baertschi basically has one shot at making the canucks top-6 out of camp next year or the team threw a 2nd away for nothing.

I fully expect the Canucks to give Baertschi lots of opportunity to make the club; similar to what the Flames did to Colbourne. They will not send him down, just because of the optics. Sven is going to get a glorious opportunity to show that he is an NHLer...it will be interesting to see how he handles it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Even when Baertschi had the game where he had two primary assists, he barely got any ice time in the third period. He was one of the better Flames that game.

I think a lot of people need to stop believing that coaches don't pick favorites. Even the best coaches in the league prefer one player over another for a myriad of reasons beyond just their play on the ice.

That was Sven's best game this year, and still it wasn't that great. Outside of his one good pass, he didn't do much that impressed me. And as a matter of fact, he got a fair bit of time in the third, and more ice time than usual the next game as well. But he didn't use the time.

[Gaudfather]

The good thing about the Baertschi trade at the end of the day - is that it reinforces the "earned, never given" motto of the team with the young and upcoming crop of players.

It doesn't matter if your a first round draft pick, or how great your father says you are, if you don't earn every minute of ice time then you won't be getting the ice time you want.

And if you think your an "up and comer" and have a sense of entitlement and think that you automatically belong with the big club, without earning it every shift - then things may not work out as planned.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That was Sven's best game this year, and still it wasn't that great. Outside of his one good pass, he didn't do much that impressed me. And as a matter of fact, he got a fair bit of time in the third, and more ice time than usual the next game as well. But he didn't use the time.

I disagree. You keep telling me that he didn't play well, as you did many times in the PGT and during the game itself, but myself and others saw him play very well.

So there's no point in arguing if it's about what you saw versus what I saw.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

In the end I think Baertschi is an example of how to waste a top prospect, from both the prospect and team perspective.

Baertschi...entitlement issues, poor attitude etc

Feaster...rushing a prospect, making him the heir apparent

Burke...not understanding Sven and criticizing him in the media

Hartley...not giving a player the ability to sink/swim, too short of a leash

Very well said, describes how I feel perfectly.

I think most would agree that, although percentages might vary from one category to another (from fans), everything you listed is a factor to a degree.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

In the end I think Baertschi is an example of how to waste a top prospect, from both the prospect and team perspective.

Baertschi...entitlement issues, poor attitude etc

Feaster...rushing a prospect, making him the heir apparent

Burke...not understanding Sven and criticizing him in the media

Hartley...not giving a player the ability to sink/swim, too short of a leash

Looking back this was handled poorly by all involved and it is a shame because the kid looked like a true blue chipper as a 19 year old. I actually felt like Treliving was trying to fix the sins of the past, in the public eye at least, and in the end the relationship was just too fractured to save.

Well put, this is what happened. Hopefully the organization learns from it.

[Red Menace]

I won't be at all surprised if Sven is a regular fixture with the Sedins by this time next year.
The organization really failed on all counts with his handling. Certainly Sven has to take some of the blame as well, but he was never given a regular shot in the top 6 with Pp time...bizarre that you wouldn't want to see what kind of asset you had.
Burke calling him out before the season had even started is still a head scratcher to me.
Hartley continually giving other prospects more ice time ahead of him was also puzzling.
Both clearly could not get over their initial impression of him, and refused to give him a chance....still find it strange when they've handled others so well.
My guess is we will regret this move.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by ah123

I fully expect the Canucks to give Baertschi lots of opportunity to make the club; similar to what the Flames did to Colbourne. They will not send him down, just because of the optics. Sven is going to get a glorious opportunity to show that he is an NHLer...it will be interesting to see how he handles it.

They'll make every effort to see him succeed.

But they aren't going to keep him up if he's costing them hockey games with a better player pigeonholed in bottom six.

You have Sedins, Vrbata, Bonino and Higgins. That's the top six. The best bet for Baertschi is to unseat Higgins, who has hands of stone and is better suited to a bottom six role. But you're still hoping that a minor leaguer with 25 AHL points beats out a major leaguer with 27 NHL points.

This is to say absolutely nothing about the other intangibles Higgins provides that Baertschi cannot. Namely, defensive play.

Much like a heads-up race in poker, either side has the ability to still come out ahead when all is said and done in this deal, but the Flames statistically are ahead in terms of probability.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I disagree. You keep telling me that he didn't play well, as you did many times in the PGT and during the game itself, but myself and other saw him play very well.

So there's no point in arguing if it's about what you saw versus what I saw.

It would be swell if you didn't lie about what I post. I said no such thing in the PGT:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...=141500&page=7

Post 136 was my only post about Sven.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That was Sven's best game this year, and still it wasn't that great. Outside of his one good pass, he didn't do much that impressed me. And as a matter of fact, he got a fair bit of time in the third, and more ice time than usual the next game as well. But he didn't use the time.

As a matter of fact it would be swell if you didn't make stuff up. He got 4 shifts in the third period and ended that game with 10:12 of ice. 2 assists.

The following game he added another assist in the game and finished with 10:43. 5 shifts in the 3rd.

The next game he was rewarded with a whopping 7:10 of total ice time.

[Ashasx]

Sorry I must have confused that with another PGT.

Doesn't change that point though