it's tiime to deal Ramo

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I still think we need more than 5 games of Ortio to justify moving Ramo.

There have been more than 5 games going back to last season, and full AHL seasons. Ortio is about as ready as they come and can be a more than competent backup if need be.

I don't know that Ramo has shown more promise and his time is running out. If the club isn't going to play him enough to gauge what he can do, then it's pretty much written in stone given the contract situation and you should move him now and get your goalie signed 1way next season settled in.

Time to free the Oreo.

[ComixZone]

Nope. Disagree.

2 professional goalies is not enough.

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by CSharp

After watching last night's game, it's obvious that Hiller is NOT the goalie going forward. You can tell a difference between Hiller vs Ramo and how they protect the net. Both are butterfly goalies, however, Hiller doesn't challenge anyone but stays in the blue paint area covering only down low. His inability to move quick laterally is what makes him a weaker goalie than Ramo, IMO. After replacing Hiller after the 4th goal, you can clearly see a difference in how Ramo challenges the shooter further out of the net so he effectively takes away a lot of the upper shots. I still think Ramo and Ortio is a better combo than Hiller and Ortio.

So when the Flames were winning and Hiller was making good saves, he was the man. Suddenly he gave up 4 goals and the Flames lost, he is not the goalie going forward. Even Kipper on his prime had at least a few bad games. I don't favour Hiller or Ramo but I still think having the two goalies who are capable of winning the games is good for this team. Okay maybe I like Ramo better but Hiller just gave us 8 pts of 12 in this homestand. I probably would agree with you if Buffalo won 4-0 over the Flames and Hiller gave up some bad goals. Flames lost to one of the tough team in the league and so it happens that two of the best players in the NHL are playing #1 and #2 centres.

As for time to trade Ramo, why the rush? Ortio is the flavour of the month right now but once he started losing people here will start dumping on him.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Since we are rebuilding... we are still rebuilding, right? Isn't getting even a 4th round draft pic for Ramo better than losing him to free agency and getting nothing?

Or does the playoff push trump the rebuild?

The view should still be on the long term. But is a fourth worth eroding the depth of this team for a playoff push? I sure don't think it is.
Plus we don't know if you can get a fourth. Dude hasn't played a full game in weeks.

[Buck Murdock]

What if you offered Ramo a rally good 2 way deal? 4.5 million up/ 800,000 down or something like that?

[JiriHrdina]

You want to pay a back up 4.5???

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The view should still be on the long term. But is a fourth worth eroding the depth of this team for a playoff push? I sure don't think it is.
Plus we don't know if you can get a fourth. Dude hasn't played a full game in weeks.

Playoffs this year are great for the long term view too. Think about the value of teaching the young players about the playoffs. Totally agree with you

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Since we are rebuilding... we are still rebuilding, right? Isn't getting even a 4th round draft pic for Ramo better than losing him to free agency and getting nothing?

Just collecting draft picks does nothing. There's also player development. And we still want to ice a competitive team.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The view should still be on the long term. But is a fourth worth eroding the depth of this team for a playoff push? I sure don't think it is.
Plus we don't know if you can get a fourth. Dude hasn't played a full game in weeks.

You're implying that if we trade Ramo it will hurt our chances of making the playoffs. I don't think it will.

However, I think the real question is, would you trade Ramo for future draft pic(s) or prospect(s), if the Flames weren't going to make the playoffs?

If your answer is yes then you really aren't looking at what's good for the team in the long term because you are willing to temporarily suspend the long term goals, by keeping Ramo, for the immediate playoff goal.

I have no interest in a team that is just good enough to make the playoffs. Been there, done that. I want a team that will dominate the playoffs.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Playoffs this year are great for the long term view too. Think about the value of teaching the young players about the playoffs. Totally agree with you

I agree with this. There are always pros and cons to any difficult decision.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Rerun

You're implying that if we trade Ramo it will hurt our chances of making the playoffs. I don't think it will.

However, I think the real question is, would you trade Ramo for future draft pic(s) or prospect(s), if the Flames weren't going to make the playoffs?

If your answer is yes then you really aren't looking at what's good for the team in the long term because you are willing to temporarily suspend the long term goals, by keeping Ramo, for the immediate playoff goal.

I have no interest in a team that is just good enough to make the playoffs. Been there, done that. I want a team that will dominate the playoffs.

You are completely missing the point. Playing meaningful games - and especially playoff games - are excellent environments for player development. You know, the prospects that we already have on the team?

Also, having weaker goaltending can really erode confidence for the players. And while I would fully agree that Ortio can take over for Ramo no problem, keep in mind that there are also a whole bunch of prospects in Adirondack that also need a goalie and their season would definitely be impacted by losing Ortio

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Itse

Just collecting draft picks does nothing. There's also player development. And we still want to ice a competitive team.

Yes, of course player development is important. It may in fact, be extremely important. Just look at our neighbors to the north on how they've botched their player development.

However, the more draft pics you have, the greater the chances of finding and developing a diamond in the rough.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You are completely missing the point. Playing meaningful games - and especially playoff games - are excellent environments for player development. You know, the prospects that we already have on the team?

Also, having weaker goaltending can really erode confidence for the players. And while I would fully agree that Ortio can take over for Ramo no problem, keep in mind that there are also a whole bunch of prospects in Adirondack that also need a goalie and their season would definitely be impacted by losing Ortio

Good points.

[Enoch Root]

I am all for getting a return for Ramo, if he is not in the plans for next year. And I want to see Ortio here as much as anyone.

However, one of the challenges is that the Flames organization is now short of goalies. If they want to move Ramo, they are going to have to acquire someone else for Adirondack (or basically throw their season into turmoil). And what if that costs as much as the return for Ramo?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Rerun

You're implying that if we trade Ramo it will hurt our chances of making the playoffs. I don't think it will.

However, I think the real question is, would you trade Ramo for future draft pic(s) or prospect(s), if the Flames weren't going to make the playoffs?

If your answer is yes then you really aren't looking at what's good for the team in the long term because you are willing to temporarily suspend the long term goals, by keeping Ramo, for the immediate playoff goal.

I have no interest in a team that is just good enough to make the playoffs. Been there, done that. I want a team that will dominate the playoffs.

It is about managing risk. If Hiller remains healthy then trading Ramo doesn't hurt their chances. But if Hiller goes down it sure does.
lance the
You are looking at this far too black and white. You don't focus 100% on the short-term or 100% on the long-term. You balance the short-term opportunity with the long-term needs.
Ramo provides more short-term balanced against a very minimal asset long-term.
I don't see how Ramo traded for a 4th really materially changes whether or not the Flames will dominate the playoffs.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am all for getting a return for Ramo, if he is not in the plans for next year. And I want to see Ortio here as much as anyone.

However, one of the challenges is that the Flames organization is now short of goalies. If they want to move Ramo, they are going to have to acquire someone else for Adirondack (or basically throw their season into turmoil). And what if that costs as much as the return for Ramo?

I don't know about that. I think Carr and Theissen could handle the rest of the season just fine. I am pretty sure Gillies will go pro next year too.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I don't know about that. I think Carr and Theissen could handle the rest of the season just fine. I am pretty sure Gillies will go pro next year too.

Gillies will go pro next year almost certainly.

But if you think the baby Flames can make any kind of a playoff run with Carr and Thiessen, well, we disagree on that.

[FireGilbert]

Just keep Ramo for the rest of the season and let him walk away as a free agent.

Having goaltending depth for a playoff run is more important than obtaining a late round draft pick. Ortio can finish the year with the AHL playoffs and hopefully next season will be sharing time with Hiller.

[GGG]

What do you get for Ramo,

If someone offers a 2nd you move him. That is worth the downside risks.
A third? What dubnyk got and likely the max we get. You consider it.
A fourth or lower and Im not interested (yes johnny and TJ were fourths).

I think the flames are in a good position in general going into the trade deadline. Not dealing people doesn't hurt the organization as much as say the Oilers because their is value in pushing into the post season. So we have leverage going into the deadline.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by CSharp

After watching last night's game, it's obvious that Hiller is NOT the goalie going forward. You can tell a difference between Hiller vs Ramo and how they protect the net. Both are butterfly goalies, however, Hiller doesn't challenge anyone but stays in the blue paint area covering only down low. His inability to move quick laterally is what makes him a weaker goalie than Ramo, IMO. After replacing Hiller after the 4th goal, you can clearly see a difference in how Ramo challenges the shooter further out of the net so he effectively takes away a lot of the upper shots. I still think Ramo and Ortio is a better combo than Hiller and Ortio.

The game completely changed at that point, so to compare the two based upon last night is not sensible.