Canadian Muslim group raided, funneled money to Hamas

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Agreed but what's your point? I didn't make any sweeping generalization of any races here.

You sure didn't.

Though there is still the tiny matter of the sweeping generalizaton you made about a cultural group that numbers 1.6 Billion people.

Suppose we put up a poll:

Which of the following is more likely:

a) someone who makes an incredibly biggoted remark about a particluar culture, is proably at least a little biggoted towards that culture

b) someone who points out that incredibly biggoted remark is probably an idiot

If I were to put money on one of those options winning the bet, I know which one I'd choose.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by polak

There's hate and discrimination due to actions by the group you willingly choose to identify as.

There is no such thing as "actions by the group". There is no "group", and if there was, it wouldn't be "acting". This type of logic is exactly what I'm arguing against, so I don't think you actually do agree with me in even the most superficial way.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by polak

I think a lot of the "us vs. them" mentality is coming from the lack of (visable) change in islam. The attacks keep continuing, there's been little to no reform on the human rights front and now we have vocal muslim enclaves in western countries that are protesting against OUR way of life in our homes.

At what point do we have to start taking matters into our own hands? I agree that this is NOT a good way to look at this and it's a very scary notion but there will be a breaking point where we stop relying on them to fix their problems.

Fox news is just capitalizing on this growing sentiment. At least we get to laugh at their stupidity?

Nope. Its coming from people who choose to view it that way.
I can fully criticize the dangerous aspects of the religious doctrine, as well as the extremists, while understanding that not every Islamic person I come across necessarily shares the same ideals. I can also understand that these issues are always complex and there are religious, social, cultural, and economic aspects to all of it.

I have no idea what you mean by "taking matters into our own hands" but if you are suggesting violence against Canadian citizens (or any people) who have done nothing other than belong to a certain religion then you are pretty much an extremist yourself.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Nope. Its coming from people who choose to view it that way.
I can fully criticize the dangerous aspects of the religious doctrine, as well as the extremists, while understanding that not every Islamic person I come across necessarily shares the same ideals. I can also understand that these issues are always complex and there are religious, social, cultural, and economic aspects to all of it.

I have no idea what you mean by "taking matters into our own hands" but if you are suggesting violence against Canadian citizens (or any people) who have done nothing other than belong to a certain religion then you are pretty much an extremist yourself.

We agree 100%. If you read my other posts they are specifically targeting those that are complacent with their peers subscribing to the more violent aspects of the religion. That I'm not okay with. Where we might differ is if whether or not you think that people have a responsibility to actively distance themselves from the problem. At what point is it up to the individual to say I no longer want to associate myself with that group. Practice your interpretation of the doctrine, without identifying as a muslim, for example (I know its an extreme example and not really needed for Canadians, but lets say if that 60% number for Pakistani’s that are okay with violence in the name of islam is true, then I think it is necessary)

I'm not saying I'm taking matters into my own hands. I'm just saying that's where I think the "us vs. them" mentality is coming from. The lack of change or initiative to incite reform.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by T@T

Amazing how people blame the west for the Islamic violence

The religion itself is the problem not it's people, it's "good book" breeds violence and any group of humans can be brainwashed into hatred.

As for decades of war how far should we go back?

-1948 and Israel? or around 733 BC when the Jews started getting exiled from Israel?
How about just before WW1 when Standard Oil started discovering massive oil reserves in the Middle East. Discovering that oil and the strategic location of the middle east is why western governments started targeting the middle east as an area that needed to be dominated in order to ensure western prosperity.

-First gulf war? should the USA have turned a blind eye on an invasion of epic crazyness? (in hindsight we should have let the Saudi's and Iran try to stop Sadam)
The same Saddam that was financially supported and armed by the US gov't? The west turned on Saddam because he stopped being their obedient lap dog and had to be brought to heel, not out of any sense of justice needing to be served. The US has turned a blind eye to many conflicts, they don't get involved unless they have something to gain.

-Second gulf war? should we have let a murderous ###### dictator develope a nuke first?
The same nuke they were no where close to actually developing and that only existed in the warmongers' dreams?

-Afgan war, should we have left bin Laden and the Taliban alone until they take down all the tall buildings in NA.?
The same war that had nothing to do with Bin Ladin and gave the west control over Afghan oil and poppy fields?

Islam needs to be re-branded,it's core is a very bad idea and it will NEVER be peaceful..ever! If allowed to breed the hate it does now mark my words...there will be a nuke war very soon.

None of these conflicts had anything to justice or protecting anyone, they were about domination and exploitation. They've done nothing to quell terrorism, but only fanned the flames of anti-western sentiment and violence. I agree that the religion of Islam is a big factor in making that area the powder keg that it is, but if you were substitute Islam with any other major religion and kept the history the same, i don't think things would be that different.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Matata

None of these conflicts had anything to justice or protecting anyone, they were about domination and exploitation. They've done nothing to quell terrorism, but only fanned the flames of anti-western sentiment and violence. I agree that the religion of Islam is a big factor in making that area the powder keg that it is, but if you were substitute Islam with any other major religion and kept the history the same, i don't think things would be that different.

It begs the question:

If these areas are so cultured and ancient, if they have so much mineral wealth, and if they have a strong historic tradition of education, philosophy and science, why are they largely backwater hell hole 2nd and 3rd world theocracies?

[polak]

Originally Posted by jammies

There is no such thing as "actions by the group". There is no "group", and if there was, it wouldn't be "acting". This type of logic is exactly what I'm arguing against, so I don't think you actually do agree with me in even the most superficial way.

There is a group.

If you CHOOSE to identify and practice the same doctorine as other people then you are grouped in with them. Religion is exactly like political affiliation. It's a choice.

And just like in Politics, if a faction of a party starts behaving in a way that the majority of the party disagrees with, there should be major reform.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It begs the question:

If these areas are so cultured and ancient, if they have so much mineral wealth, and if they have a strong historic tradition of education, philosophy and science, why are they largely backwater hell hole 2nd and 3rd world theocracies?

Religion.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by polak

There is a group.

You CHOOSE to identify and practice the same doctorine as other people then you are grouped in with them. Religion is a choice.

You love hockey.

Therefore, you must love the oilers.

/logic destroyed

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by jammies

Blaming "Islam" for anything is another example of how people confuse generalities with specifics. "Islam" is far too amorphous, huge, and often contradictory in its parts for anyone to be able to attribute causality to it. You can talk about movements within Islam in this fashion, if they are coherent enough, but even then you have to be careful not to fall into error by speaking to the specific from the inchoate general.

The essence of bigotry is to assign attributes to an individual conforming to stereotypes attached to a group of which that person is a part. Creating those stereotypes is, therefore, a necessary first step for every aspiring bigot, and thus statements like "Islam breeds violence" or "Islam excuses violence" are precursors to bigotry, at the very least. If you don't like being lumped in with bigots, avoid such nonsensical junk.

And yet I never said anything like that. All I said was the hate runs deep in that culture. That is my observation. Doesn't anyone think it's sad that there was RCMP surveillance on the Muslim Association of Canada in the first place? Have you been to the MAC website? Now I'm not condemning the people, MAC, or any Canadians breeding anything but the hatred is so deep in the culture that even in a Canadian based religious, educational organization that proclaims they are opposed to violence has to be watched. That's how far reaching even organizations like this have to be watched. Now I get that they could be innocent of any wrongdoing but the RCMP was certainly tipped of something (unless you believe they are racist) and it's just very unfortunate that it's come to this kind of stuff even in Canada and that has nothing to do with you me or anyone being a racist. It's the reality that the authorities have to continually carry out this kind of stuff in our country. My statement was a comment on how it's so deeply routed that we have to have what appears to be a peaceful, educational association under surveillance which is in fact what happened and the whole thing degenerates into me being racist. In part because some here are overly sensitive and in part because some dislike me so much they can't pass up any opportunity to jump on the bandwagon.

However, the 113-page RCMP warrant shows the Mississauga group was under police surveillance for alleged terrorist financing as recently as last year. The warrant mentions an alleged transaction that took place at Al-Radwah Mosque, a MAC facility in north-end Montreal.

"(REDACTED) was observed on March 6, 2014, exiting the MAC location in Montreal carrying an 8 1/2 by 14-inch yellow envelope in his hand," the warrant reads. "It is possible that (REDACTED) is still accepting donations on behalf of IRFAN from the MAC in Montreal."

I get that some of you guys don't like me and I'm fine with that but you are not being fair here at all. In a way it's kind of ironic actually given how some of you have a deep dislike for me and never a pass up a chance to take a shot at me. That doesn't make you people bad or racist, that's your opinion and that's life.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You love hockey.

Therefore, you must love the oilers.

/logic destroyed

No, I actively denounce the oilers. I make a point of saying the Oilers are no good and I ridicule and despise supporters of the Oilers organization and everything they stand for.

If I lived in a place that was 60% oiler fans, I would actively try and seperate myself from being grouped in with them.

/good job

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by polak

No, I actively denounce the oilers. I make a point of saying the Oilers are no good and I ridicule and despise supporters of the Oilers organization and everything they stand for.

If I lived in a place that was 60% oiler fans, I would actively try and seperate myself from being grouped in with them.

Oh, so you're like these guys, then:

http://muslimscondemningthings.tumblr.com/

Weird.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Oh I do notice it trust me but it appears it's kind of flying over your head. I'm bringing attention to why the site disallows certain threads like ones that show pictures of scantily clad females in order to make this site friendly to new members, etc but it's perfectly fine to call out posters for being racists and bigots. We all know what I said has merit. I don't have any issue with people regardless of their race or skin color but I do disagree with religions and cultures that aren't tolerant of other beliefs or cultures. I don't blame the people because nobody can choose what they are born into but I do blame the cultures and religions for a lot of the senseless violence across this planet. I'm allowed to have that opinion and I shouldn't be called a bigot or racist for stating my opinion.

We here a lot from visitors how hostile this place can be and this thread exemplifies that. It seems some people can't disagree without insulting others as that Shantz guy did. Yes I did insult him back but I was extremely upset by him characterizing me as a racist & bigot and I wanted to get the moderators attention as I don't feel this should be acceptable behavior. I don't know about the moderators but I certainly have succeeded in bringing some of my biggest fans out of the woodwork.

I've heard talk from mods like Jiri that they strive to be better than other sites and it has come a long way in the last year as the usual suspects have toned down their acts and things have been for the most part more civil but calling people racist is such an insult that it's my belief this shouldn't be acceptable as it simply isn't constructive. The mods can give me an infraction or put me in the sin bin for countering an insult to my character and that's fine but if it results in the other guy getting an infraction as well it's been well worth it for me as it will make this a better place and something we should strive for.

Calling someone an idiot doesn't make this a better place. Just so we are clear on that.
I think this discussion actually is quite interesting - and clearly a sensitive one. So we've allowed it to continue and are taking a more relaxed position than normal in modding it - to allow it to continue.
But know that your post wasn't something we looked at and said "Yup in this case EE was right to insult a poster".

So don't take a lack of infraction as validation.

We can lock the thread, dish out infractions - or allow the discussion to continue which actually has some valuable pieces to it.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Oh, so you're like these guys, then:

http://muslimscondemningthings.tumblr.com/

Weird.

Your argument makes no sense.

You equated being a hockey fan to being a muslim. The oilers would be a smaller faction of hockey. I don't like what the oilers stand for so I denounce them.

I can't open that link but I'm assuming it's muslims speaking out against western life? If so that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm denouncing violence and human rights violations.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by polak

Your argument makes no sense.

You equated being a hockey fan to being a muslim. The oilers would be a smaller faction of hockey. I don't like what the oilers stand for so I denounce them.

So then you're just like every other muslim that doesn't like what extremist stand for.

Which is the vast majority.

Feel better?

I can't open that link but I'm assuming it's muslims speaking out against western life? If so that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm denouncing violence and human rights violations.

"I don't know what that is, but I assume it's muslim's hating me."

Paints a pretty clear picture on how you're approaching this discussion.

It's something about muslims, I don't know what, but based on what I know about the word 'muslim' it's probably bad.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Oh, so you're like these guys, then:

http://muslimscondemningthings.tumblr.com/

Weird.

Really what those guys need is better PR. What may happen then though may be the "Muslims must condemn these acts" groups would move the goalposts to "Muslims must forcibly stop these acts" or something similar. Seems reasonable to me, I'm not sure why 1.6 billion people can't just work as one homogenous group.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So then you're just like every other muslim that doesn't like what extremist stand for.

Which is the vast majority.

Feel better?



"I don't know what that is, but I assume it's muslim's hating me."

Paints a pretty clear picture on how you're approaching this discussion.

It's something about muslims, I don't know what, but based on what I know about the word 'muslim' it's probably bad.

Where in my posts did I say I have a problem with the vast majority of muslims? Not once did I say that. I have a problem with countries where 40-60% of the population thinks violence in the name of islam is justified and I also said that there is a responsibility in those regions for the non-violent muslims to correct the issue.

Ummm, cause that's the only thing I could think of making sense in the context you put it in?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Calling someone an idiot doesn't make this a better place. Just so we are clear on that.
I think this discussion actually is quite interesting - and clearly a sensitive one. So we've allowed it to continue and are taking a more relaxed position than normal in modding it - to allow it to continue.
But know that your post wasn't something we looked at and said "Yup in this case EE was right to insult a poster".

So don't take a lack of infraction as validation.

We can lock the thread, dish out infractions - or allow the discussion to continue which actually has some valuable pieces to it.

I assumed you were taking that type of stance which is why I haven't chickened out and left the thread even though the more I post the more fuel it is for the people that dislike me (the usual suspects giving thanks in the anti-EE posts). I'm outspoken and opinionated and that doesn't mesh well with some people but I'm not going to let someone call me a bigot and turn the other cheek as that's simply going too far IMO. I knew what I was doing (calling him an idiot) and was willing to face the consequences as long as things were fair and the other guy was also disciplined.

You are correct that the tit doesn't justify tat and this definitely doesn't make this a better place but I really wish some of these sensitive people could respond in more of a "don't you think that's racist" rather than taking the easy route and calling people "racist". That alone would have kept the discussion civil and on topic.

Really though how interesting is this discussion? How can you really separate the actual discussion when a lot of the people posting would be in unison ganging up on me regardless of the topic as long as there was something to latch on to as an excuse? Flameswin and MMF have attacked me in this thread but not regarding the the racism so you must fully realize that this goes much deeper than the whole "racist" discussion no?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by polak

Where in my posts did I say I have a problem with the vast majority of muslims? Not once did I say that. I have a problem with countries where 40-60% of the population thinks violence in the name of islam is justified and I also said that there is a responsibility in those regions for the non-violent muslims to correct the issue.

Ummm, cause that's the only thing I could think of making sense in the context you put it in?

Seriously?

You are arguing that Muslims should distance themselves from violent extremeists.

You said they should do like you do, denounce the subset of their culture that they disagree with (you denounce the Oilers).

You get shown a link with the comment "Oh, so you're like these guys then?"


And your first thought is "Well this must be Muslims acting in a sterotypically extreme way, because obviously it can't be Muslims acting rationally and denouncing those that are violent and extreme, like I would/do"

Got it!

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by jammies

There is no such thing as "actions by the group". There is no "group", and if there was, it wouldn't be "acting". This type of logic is exactly what I'm arguing against...

I disagree. There is a group and the group is called, collectively, Muslim population and it has its own culture that is open for discussion and criticism. For example, when a survey shows that 11% of London's $1M Muslim population would not report a suspicious perpetrated terrorist activity to the police, that is a strong indicator of the group's overall negativity towards "them", with "them" being the host city/country/society. It further demonstrates antagonism and distrust of the societal current law and order system. That's roughly 110,000 people that are not to be taken dismissively as bad apples or individuals not representing the population. They absolutely are and they are a statistically significant representation.

As for Thor's reasoning in this thread earlier, while it's very eloquently stated, I always have difficulty following the superiority/inferiority logic that always leads to excusing the inexcusable. "Yeah, they flog, stone and kill people, yeah, they persecute homosexuals, yeah, they consider women a sub-class and keep them locked up, yeah, they hate the rest of the world and half of them forgive terrorist activities... but what can we do, they are still living in feudal age, so its' understandable, or they are oppressed, so how could they be blamed?".. This logic is flawed at the root. It is exactly because they do that, the progressively-minded countries must keep pressure on those economies and their leaders to wake up and face the new reality. It worked with the USSR - the most infallible and heavily armed regime fell to the pressure mounted up against it and resulted in a liberation of the Soviet society and its transformation to a more open and free country (they still have a very long way to go but it's moving). It worked with other former socialist block countries. At some point, it will start working on even the most radical Islamic countries.