That's a pretty interesting post considering your crusade against me saying I personally attack posters.
That's a flat out insta-ban, imo, but not my call. Good lord.
I'm not familiar with your interactions (I try not to pay attention to that sort of thing) but there was a side thread that started in the "Help" subforum. I mention it only because I almost never notice that portion of the forums or go into it.
I rarely see the stuff that mods do but I appreciate their efforts nonetheless.
The number of terrorist attacks if you try to put them into context by the 1.6 Billion Muslims returns a number of .0001% or something to that tiny degree. In Europe the last 30yrs 2% of terrorist attacks were related to a religious motive.
I certainly agree that there is a problem with Islam as Sam Harris keeps pointing out, there is a lot of followers who accept some pretty horrible ideas, apostasy high on that list.
However the problem is more nuanced, the areas of the world where Islam dominates is pretty backwards in general, old male dominated societies that have a desperate need for an enlightenment like Christian Europe went through. Theocracies dominate, religious schooling instead of secular schooling, where religion takes a smothering hold on everyone's daily life.
The Quran is in many ways like the Bible, and lots of people then ask, well why aren't Christians blowing themselves up?? The problem lies within the fact a lot of these nations are theocracies, 2nd and 3rd world countries, backwards places that have never had a hint of freedom, democracy and a reformation of their religion.
If we went back 300 years, Christianity would be seen as a pretty brutal religion in the eyes of modern ethics, morals and laws. Islam is in need of reform, reformation, and more importantly I think secular governments, schools, and prosperity to bring them into the modern age.
We have to keep these distinctions when we criticise Islam, because these blanket statements about Muslims are not helping, we attack the underlying issues, support people like Maajid Newaz in Britain who is one of the many out there trying to deal with these issues of modernity and old world nations who rule as theocracies, the people live in poverty and despair, and often see the west as an aggressor to their lands.
We have a our hands dirty in so many ways, as colonizers we left these places far behind the west, we used these nations in Africa, the middle east and Asia as nations which fed our prosperity and growth while the people of these nations worked in slave like conditions with no hope of improving their own lives.
I am not justifying anything, but we have to have an honest look at how we got to this point, Bernard Lewis wrote a great book on this fall for Islam, as it was once the center of science, art, music, when Europe was at that time quite backwards.
Anyways do check out Naajiid, he's a great speaker.
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When did it become acceptable to insult during discussion/debate?
When a poster calls me racist. Seriously I am so tired of people throwing that crap out on the internet and IMO there should be infractions handed out for calling anyone a racist unless it's very clear they are. I'm not going to take that crap from someone that doesn't even know me.
Oh and even in places like Egypt which has been pretty hostile to the Islamists, the president recently made this speech to call for reform, for them to look within at the state of Islam today.
Also this response at the Oxford debate shortly after the British soldiers were murdered on the street by knife wielding Islamists, has a particularly good response to the Islam is a violent religion way of thinking. I really don't like this particular guy, he's a well known apologetic, but he did make an excellent 12 min response to a very bad argument put forth by the other side, the whole video is easy to find if you want to hear all the pro and con arguments by both sides.
That's a pretty interesting post considering your crusade against me saying I personally attack posters.
That's a flat out insta-ban, imo, but not my call. Good lord.
Oh please. I realized the moment I entered that drivel such as yours would follow but it doesn't matter because throwing out the term racist IMO is a real issue and needed to be brought to the forefront. I believe the mods realize what happened in this thread which is why the posts haven't been deleted and I'm still here. Calling others racist IMO should be followed with a the very least an infraction and I'm tired of it. That guy is an idiot for calling me a racist plain and simple based on my post. Calling him out for what I feel about him after insulting me with his post isn't a personal attack it's simply my response to his personal attack on me. The mods can easily look at my post history to see this isn't something I do on a regular basis or ever out but that bull#### really hits a nerve with me and it needs to stop.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 01-29-2015 at 07:38 AM.
He doesn't notice things like that when it comes from himself. It's truly unbelievable.
Oh I do notice it trust me but it appears it's kind of flying over your head. I'm bringing attention to why the site disallows certain threads like ones that show pictures of scantily clad females in order to make this site friendly to new members, etc but it's perfectly fine to call out posters for being racists and bigots. We all know what I said has merit. I don't have any issue with people regardless of their race or skin color but I do disagree with religions and cultures that aren't tolerant of other beliefs or cultures. I don't blame the people because nobody can choose what they are born into but I do blame the cultures and religions for a lot of the senseless violence across this planet. I'm allowed to have that opinion and I shouldn't be called a bigot or racist for stating my opinion.
We here a lot from visitors how hostile this place can be and this thread exemplifies that. It seems some people can't disagree without insulting others as that Shantz guy did. Yes I did insult him back but I was extremely upset by him characterizing me as a racist & bigot and I wanted to get the moderators attention as I don't feel this should be acceptable behavior. I don't know about the moderators but I certainly have succeeded in bringing some of my biggest fans out of the woodwork.
I've heard talk from mods like Jiri that they strive to be better than other sites and it has come a long way in the last year as the usual suspects have toned down their acts and things have been for the most part more civil but calling people racist is such an insult that it's my belief this shouldn't be acceptable as it simply isn't constructive. The mods can give me an infraction or put me in the sin bin for countering an insult to my character and that's fine but if it results in the other guy getting an infraction as well it's been well worth it for me as it will make this a better place and something we should strive for.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 01-29-2015 at 08:37 AM.
I just had to look at the thread title to remember what this whole thing was supposed to be about anyway.... So far, 4 pages of loosely related BS and sensitive internet warriors.
On topic, I'm on board with the idea this article is sensationalism by the Sun. But that doesn't mean there isn't a real deep rooted issue here that most of us do not fully understand.
When a poster calls me racist. Seriously I am so tired of people throwing that crap out on the internet and IMO there should be infractions handed out for calling anyone a racist unless it's very clear they are. I'm not going to take that crap from someone that doesn't even know me.
ya, it does seem really unfair to be the subject of broad, sweeping generalizations by those who don't know you. doesn't it?
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Agreed but what's your point? I didn't make any sweeping generalization of any races here.
Well no. But you did make a sweeping generalization about all of the people in a certain "culture". And that cetain culture is somewhat racially harmonious. That might be why you're getting called out.
Here is why I don't think EE is a racist (although dismissing the whole culture of Islam was a bit overboard, if he was more specific to fundamentalist Islam, I'd agree with him):
If I meet someone who is Muslim, I won't treat them any differently than I would anyone else unless they start spouting some BS that leads me to believe that they are apathetic or even sympathetic to extremists. Then in all honesty, I don't know what I'd do. I'd be ####ing pissed though. The whole concept of religion is one that I dislike so using it as a basis for hurting or taking freedoms away from others just drives me up the wall.
So, when we hear stories and see statistics claiming that 40-60% of Country X is okay with violence in the name of Islam, and whatever number is in support of sharia law, which takes away pretty much all of the rights of women, homosexuals and non-Muslims then guess what? I really ####ing dislike that country. My hate isn't based on the fact that they are Muslim, or Arab or anything. I don't care if they're black, white or blue or if they pray to Jesus, Buddha or Vanilla Ice. My hate is based on the fact that a significant portion of their population is okay with using their beliefs, beliefs which are based on ZERO scientific evidence, as justification for all of the HORRIBLE BACKWARDS crap they do. That is not racist. That is simply hating someone based on their actions.
Now, I know what's next. "You're painting everyone in Country X with the same brush", and yeah I guess you are right. However, at what point is the majority responsible for taking action against the completely ####ed in the head minority? Look at the western world for example. There is still a significantly large portion of people who discriminate against Gay rights but guess what? There is also a very loud, vocal and active opposition that is in favor of gay rights. It's not just Gay people, it's everyone that believes in equality. We are actively changing the landscape of the western world to be inclusive and respectful of a once marginalized people. I am aware that there are people in these Muslim countries that are speaking out and fighting for equality and condemning extremism and I have upmost respect for them as what they are doing is far more dangerous and courageous then anything I have ever done in my life. My point though, is that we need to see some real reforms or solutions or change being put into place by Muslim leaders to cull these terrible factions of Islam and we're not seeing that. A handful of speakers talking to a room full of people that agree with them is not going to do anything.
While I totally agree with the types of criticisms that Sam Harris put out there against Islam, I'm actually really glad Ben Affleck called him out too. Why?
There is another type of extremism that is surfacing (just watch 2 mins of Fox News) that wants to extend criticism of Islam to become criticism of "muslims". And that is dangerous territory. Let's not be naïve to the "us vs them" narrative being built by certain people in the western world too. While some people can debate the issues with the religion of Islam and not be bigoted, there are also people out there that will use the same arguments as an excuse for their bigotry. Making blanket statements against entire ethnicities of people is flat out dangerous. I shudder to think of the people (and you know they exist) that call themselves fans of Sam Harris but probably completely miss the point intellectually, and view it as a rationalization for their bigotry.
The trick for the western world is going to be combat Islamic extremism while not becoming extremists themselves.
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I think a lot of the "us vs. them" mentality is coming from the lack of (visable) change in islam. The attacks keep continuing, there's been little to no reform on the human rights front and now we have vocal muslim enclaves in western countries that are protesting against OUR way of life in our homes.
At what point do we have to start taking matters into our own hands? I agree that this is NOT a good way to look at this and it's a very scary notion but there will be a breaking point where we stop relying on them to fix their problems.
Fox news is just capitalizing on this growing sentiment. At least we get to laugh at their stupidity?
While I totally agree with the types of criticisms that Sam Harris put out there against Islam, I'm actually really glad Ben Affleck called him out too. Why?
There is another type of extremism that is surfacing (just watch 2 mins of Fox News) that wants to extend criticism of Islam to become criticism of "muslims". And that is dangerous territory. Let's not be naïve to the "us vs them" narrative being built by certain people in the western world too. While some people can debate the issues with the religion of Islam and not be bigoted, there are also people out there that will use the same arguments as an excuse for their bigotry. Making blanket statements against entire ethnicities of people is flat out dangerous. I shudder to think of the people (and you know they exist) that call themselves fans of Sam Harris but probably completely miss the point intellectually, and view it as a rationalization for their bigotry.
The trick for the western world is going to be combat Islamic extremism while not becoming extremists themselves.
The problem comes in the separation. If there are tenants of Islam that I find abhorrent, I have no problem criticising the muslims that believe in those tenants. Just as I have no problems thinking that Christians who use the bible to persecute and damn homosexuals are garbage.
Why would someone hate a belief and then just pardon the people who agree with that belief? Where is that line for hard line belief opening a person up to criticism? What are the percentages? Is it 50% of Christians who support the ridiculous portions of the Bible? Is it 50% of Muslims who support their equally ridiculous writings?
"Islamophobia" is a product of our current media age aligning with this current rise of Qutbism and Wahhabism. If the currently western world mentality and media coverage were in place during the Spanish Inquisition, people would be flipping out over that too.
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Blaming "Islam" for anything is another example of how people confuse generalities with specifics. "Islam" is far too amorphous, huge, and often contradictory in its parts for anyone to be able to attribute causality to it. You can talk about movements within Islam in this fashion, if they are coherent enough, but even then you have to be careful not to fall into error by speaking to the specific from the inchoate general.
The essence of bigotry is to assign attributes to an individual conforming to stereotypes attached to a group of which that person is a part. Creating those stereotypes is, therefore, a necessary first step for every aspiring bigot, and thus statements like "Islam breeds violence" or "Islam excuses violence" are precursors to bigotry, at the very least. If you don't like being lumped in with bigots, avoid such nonsensical junk.
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Last edited by jammies; 01-29-2015 at 01:52 PM.
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Blaming "Islam" for anything is another example of how people confuse generalities with specifics. "Islam" is far too amorphous, huge, and often contradictory in its parts for anyone to be able to attribute causality to it. You can talk about movements within Islam in this fashion, if they are coherent enough, but even then you have to be careful not to fall into error by speaking to the specific from the inchoate general.
The essence of bigotry is to assign attributes to an individual conforming to stereotypes attached to a group of which that person is a part. Creating those stereotypes is, therefore, a necessary first step for every aspiring bigot, and thus statements like "Islam breeds violence" or "Islam excuses violence" are precursors to bigotry, at the very least.
If you don't like being lumped in with bigots, avoid such nonsensical junk.
While I agree discriminating against the individual for the actions of people within their group is not okay, and I even said earlier I'd never treat someone differently just cause they told me they're muslim, why is it our responsibility to distance others from their own problem? Bigotry usually means discriminating and hating people for being different. That's not whats happening here. There's hate and discrimination due to actions by the group you willingly choose to identify as.
The article posted earlier had some pretty glairing evidence that a significant portion of people who pratice islam in islamic countries are okay with violence in the name of islam.
You know, if Canadians were slaughtering innocent people in the name of hockey, I'd stop calling myself a Canadian. I'd distance myself from the problem and then vocally denounce it. Even if I lived in Canada, I would say I'm not Canadian. Just like Germans who weren't Nazi's (oh no I just mentioned Nazi's, here we go).
I don't think anyone on here would judge, treat or discriminate against someone who identifies as a muslim who denounces what is going on with the violence in their religion. It's those that don't care, or worse, support it that we are against.
