Alberta PST discussion

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Slava

The funniest part of the this graph is that by the end we are running a surplus, so evidently it wasn't that bad of a policy?

That surplus was probably based on $90 oil

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jacks

The problems started when spending dramatically increased, not when revenues went down.

Revenue is the blue line, spending is the black mark.

Well, as a result of the Klein era, spending had to increase dramatically from the prolonged period of slashing and burning. There was basically nowhere to go but up.

Unless you're advocating Klein style cuts as the new normal, Alberta has a revenue problem.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well, as a result of the Klein era, spending had to increase dramatically from the prolonged period of slashing and burning. There was basically nowhere to go but up.

Unless you're advocating Klein style cuts as the new normal, Alberta has a revenue problem.

I would prefer Klein style cuts as the new norm. Absolutely.

People think a pst will solve all our problems. A year after a pst we'll all be complaining about taxes and how class sizes are still too large and nothings changed. Albertan's are forgetting what it was like with a pst. All our spending problems won't be solved with more taxes.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Unless you're advocating Klein style cuts as the new normal, Alberta has a revenue problem.

Klein style cuts should be revered. The guy balanced the book on $10 oil. After Klein'd left, we faced deficit even with $100 oil. Go figures.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Klein style cuts should be revered. The guy balanced the book on $10 oil. After Klein'd left, we faced deficit even with $100 oil. Go figures.

Actually the spending started ramping up fairly dramatically in the last couple of Klein years. Once the Debt was paid off they forgot all about fiscal restraint. Wish they would have started saving then.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Klein style cuts should be revered. The guy balanced the book on $10 oil. After Klein'd left, we faced deficit even with $100 oil. Go figures.

What was the corresponding contrast in gas prices? Alberta gets far more royalties from gas than oil, about 7:1 IIRC. While the media harps on oil all day, this is a pretty telling factor for our current fiscal situation as compared to the Klein years.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Slava

What was the corresponding contrast in gas prices? Alberta gets far more royalties from gas than oil, about 7:1 IIRC. While the media harps on oil all day, this is a pretty telling factor for our current fiscal situation as compared to the Klein years.

Not even close and hasn't been the case for many years.

Natural Gas & By-product Royalty
2010/11 $1,416
2011/12 $1,304
2012/13 $954
2013/14 $1,103

Conventional Oil Royalty
2010/11 $2,236
2011/12 $2,284
2012/13 $1,881
2013/14 $2,476

Oil Sands Royalty
2010/11 $3,723
2011/12 $4,513
2012/13 $3,560
2013/14 $5,222

Bonuses & Sales of Crown Leases
2010/11 $2,635
2011/12 $3,312
2012/13 $1,053
2013/14 $588

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

The original poster only said he want's to see more "pay-per-use" and you seem to have made quite the leap that it means a US system only, which was the point of my post in the first place.

Only a leap if you're not familiar with the poster...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

We would have zero in the bank if it wasn't for the cojones of Peter Lougheed.

And if you don't think deliberate Government leadership in economic diversification is important...read up on SAGD. Without the Government risking the investment in the Underground Test Facility (And AOSTRA) the oilsands would be a shadow of what it is today.

That same leadership is needed to broaden the economy so that were aren't hammered like this when the volatile oil prices happen (again...and again).

So put me down for a PST and building up the heritage fund...so sorry if Truck Nuts cost a little more.

Well, you use those resource royalties to make long-term investments in stuff like SAGD and carbon capture. Otherwise the money should be saved.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Congratulations. This is the dumbest thing I've heard today. How high do you think the PST would have to be to compensate for no income tax?

"We are implementing a 14% sales tax and eliminating provincial income tax."

Actually, it might only be 15%. I'm not sure the exact number but it was posted on CP a while ago.

Could be wrong though.

[Harry Lime]

I realize that there is another thread on this, but the discussion about royalties from gas vs. oil that culminated in the graph above by crazy_eoj just accentuated the wanton lack of perspective on the part of our government.

The gas royalties will remain somewhat constant, because a large portion of that production has been in place and stable for years. The royalties that we receive for oil are extremely low considering what other jurisdictions are demanding of the same companies worldwide.

We have a royalty structure already in place that is designed to make sure that we are competitive and fair in our demand for royalties, but there is a blind eye and disregard on the part of the government to make sure that loopholes to avoid paying the agreed upon amount are closed as they appear.

And now talk of a PST? Give me a break.

(PS. There is a hockey game on, and this is a sideline distraction argument for me, so anyone who is interested can look online for the intended royalty structure, or check out previous threads on the subject.)

By the time that the oilsands royalty agreements were put in place til now, our Heritage Fund should have been reaching Norway levels. We could then almost equal our 'current' income from oil and gas in being a loans banker for the rest of Canada.

PST. Makes me wish that we lived in a democratic province. Almost.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Congratulations. This is the dumbest thing I've heard today. How high do you think the PST would have to be to compensate for no income tax?

"We are implementing a 14% sales tax and eliminating provincial income tax."

After thinking about consumption tax vs income tax I think I would be all for a consumption tax replacing income tax. We are actually a pretty frugal family without a lot of excess consumption and I think the consumption tax would have to be upwards of 25% for me to reach my current income tax amount. We would come out well ahead financially.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Actually the spending started ramping up fairly dramatically in the last couple of Klein years. Once the Debt was paid off they forgot all about fiscal restraint. Wish they would have started saving then.

Regardless, Klein managed to balance the books, pay off debt and issue Ralph bucks on economic conditions not as favorable as last year. It proves just one point - once you reign in spending, everything else is easy.

Spend frivolously, no degree of taxes could right the wrongs. This is the gist of our problems today.

We are already one of the heaviest taxed countries on earth and we still can't make ends meet. And yet some people think more taxes will solve our problems.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

After thinking about consumption tax vs income tax I think I would be all for a consumption tax replacing income tax.

A large consumption tax replacing income tax+PST won't fly becase:

1) people will have strong tendency not to spend at all.
2) people will buy from neighboring provinces such as BC or SK.
3) many expenditures generally don't fall under a consumption tax regime, eg. rent, insurance payments, bank fees etc.
4) it's not fair to people with no AB income such as new immigrants from other countries or other Canadian provinces
5) it strongly discourage tourists to spend in AB

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Regardless, Klein managed to balance the books, pay off debt and issue Ralph bucks on economic conditions not as favorable as last year. It proves just one point - once you reign in spending, everything else is easy.

Spend frivolously, no degree of taxes could right the wrongs. This is the gist of our problems today.

We are already one of the heaviest taxed countries on earth and we still can't make ends meet. And yet some people think more taxes will solve our problems.

We rank 26 out of the 31 OECD countries. http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/think-c...gain-1.1771575

[Husky]

Why introduce any new form of revenue when clearly the government will waste it. Cuts are needed.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

A sales tax is a good idea but only if resource revenues are completely removed from the AB budget. Most Albertans' reject a tax and spend socialist paradise, and having our tax burdens reflect actual spending is a move in the right direction.

Interesting statement from you...definitely more nuanced than I might have thought from some of your other posts.
But one thing that I disagree complete with you is that most Albertans reject a tax and spend socialist paradise...they want that, and they don't want to pay for it, believing instead that 'the oil' should pay for it, and leave their taxes low while they get as good if not better services than can be found in the rest of the country because they are in Alberta.

[calgarywinning]

I think the real problem lies with the voting public.

We spend less time evaluating our political options, governance than we do in a coffee shop. We ask for less and are asked to spend more than ever. I bet the average citizen spends more time shopping for underwear online.

In front of the curtains, not behind the curtains, we witness the gross negligence of the modern day ruling party for the last 60+ years and the state of governess they have achieved. Their examples are not anomalies. All excluding Ralph Klein. I don't care about the fact that he made cuts. He said what he was going to do and then he did it. Very few leaders run on this platform of doing what they say.

He balanced the budget and was and will be the only politician in my life that lived up to his word. So much so that when there was a surplus he actually returned the money, which wasn't his (big concept) back to the people. This is not a review of the impact of the cuts, or the impact of how it affected people, which I truly think it did. I think he did what he said, which is a great start for the voting public to count on somebodies words as actions. Wrong or right this made him a remarkable person.

Anyways, in Alberta what we need to be careful of, is that if we accept new taxation we demand so much more for our money going forward. I'm strongly against a sales tax with this regime of government.. and their wasteful ways. However, if they were able to enhance, enable and be creative with this tax I would be for it. Can't we have MRI centres? Can't we have preventive medicine and education?

Instead of great questions, what we have is the ruling party buying out the opposition so that an election can be held and we can all march like lemmings' and lose by voting for the only winner. Sadly, that is politics. No choice. Your X, for your feeling that you are free when clearly we are not.

Why not turn the Alberta Advantage into an advanced medical care system, preventative care and lead the country. This would be worth changing our ways.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

It amuses me to no end when a specific group of people in one specific place on the internet post a bunch of comments congratulating each for agreeing with each other and thinking they've reached a consensus.

In this situation, it's group of PST supporters that seem to have a lot of free time during the working day. It's easy to see why. What you don't realize is that you're not seeing a lot of objections because the people working real jobs are too busy to reply, and likely don't concern themselves with what low income earners and financial novices on a hockey based website think anyway.

Some of the funnier things I see here include ideas like "This province needs rely less on oil and gas revenue" followed by ideas like "we need to increase business taxes". So let me get this straight, your solution to not relying on oil and gas is to punish non oil and gas companies by increasing their tax burden. Fundamentally you want to create disincentives for companies to operate in Alberta.

It's like you collectively forgot (or probably never understood) what the Alberta Advantage was about. You forget why companies relocated their headquarters to Alberta in the first place. Low taxes. You want to punish companies for bringing jobs to Alberta, you want to punish them for bringing extra revenue in the form of business and personal taxes. Do you not see the consequences? You will drive them away, and they will to take the jobs with them.

I also enjoy the "tax the rich" comments. It says a lot about your financial status. There's nothing more amusing than people who earn less than others pay in taxes telling those others they need to pay more taxes. Don't you have a tent to be setting up in Olympic Plaza?

And finally, I can't believe some of you are willing to line up and give extra money to a government that has shown it doesn't know how to manage money. The PCs have a spending problem, and you think the solution is to give them more to spend? Do you think a PST solves spending problems? Are you deliberately ignoring the financial situations of provinces with sales taxes?

Anyway, have fun insulting me all day tomorrow. I'll be working.

[oilyfan]

Nice self congratulatory post HBW

This is a discussion about PST. How is that a disincentive for companies to relocate to Alberta?

This is a comsumption tax, one of the fairest taxes around. No matter how you cut it, this province needs to spend money on infrastructure. While Klein showed admirable grit to cut our debt he kicked the can down the line, we need to build roads, bridges and industrial infrastructure to make this a sustained economy. Relying on oil and gas revenues to do that is only going to get us in this exact position every five years.

And trust me, I have a job in Oil and Gas, but I have a broader view of what has made this province successful. And let's not live in a bubble here, most of the big oil and gas players in Calgary are foreign controlled with motivations to come here that transcend low taxes, and I am not advocating higher corporate taxes.

Oil and gas has made this a very successful province but it's volatility has caused much hardship too.