Your Solution For Fixing The Flames

[heep223]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There is a consensus (brought on by blind fan-boy support??) that the Flames are playing well over this 8 game losing streak and that they have been NHL level competitive.

Well yes this is the consensus in the media, on the team, from behind the bench, and from management. They had a few games where they were beat solidly but the majority they were right there with the opposition and they played well.

I get the reluctance to appear oiler-esque by saying that we've been unlucky, or somehow justifying the losing streak, but I think that clouds judgement just as much as the "blind fan-boy support".

[Tron_fdc]

Unfortunately, we're stuck with the roster as it is. We fix the team by (somehow) getting more out of the players we have. It's (IMO) too late to bring up "the kids" to bring back whatever chemistry we had 9 games ago. At that point you had guys playing their heart out, because they knew the second our vets were healthy it was musical chairs until they ran out of seats and were sent down. Bring them up now after clearing out a roster spot, and I doubt you see the same urgency.

I get the whole "correlation, causation" argument, but there is NO DOUBT in my mind (never has been) that the slide coincides with the return of Stajan, Raymond and Colbourne. Stats guys can throw whatever stat out they want, but you can't quantify intangibles and chemistry. Teams feed off guys who work their ass off in every facet of the game, which is what those kids were all doing, regardless of what they brought to the scoresheet. Vets come back and suddenly the foot comes off the pedal, urgency is lost, we get sub par goaltending, and here we are. You can see it in their play; the entire team just looks average. The forecheck is gone, the cycle is lost, and our breakout looks like it was designed by Rhett Warrener.

The only way we get better right now is if the vets start playing their bags off, or we hit another injury and a few guys come up from Adirondack. If we had the luxury of rotating Baertschi/Ferland/Granlund/Jooris/Vet thorugh the lineup on any given gameday I bet you would see the urgency return.

Without that, I just don't see the losses stopping any time soon.

[SuperMatt18]

Be patient.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

I get the whole "correlation, causation" argument, but there is NO DOUBT in my mind (never has been) that the slide coincides with the return of Stajan, Raymond and Colbourne. Stats guys can throw whatever stat out they want, but you can't quantify intangibles and chemistry. Teams feed off guys who work their ass off in every facet of the game, which is what those kids were all doing, regardless of what they brought to the scoresheet.

The slide has nothing to do with effort. Young players often play like their hair is on fire for their first 10-20 games in the NHL. You can't expect that temporary boost to last. The grind of a long season starts to set in, the adrenaline wears off, and they come back to earth.

Jooris has come back to earth. Granlund has come back to earth. The effects of overplaying the top-4 D are now being felt. Opposing teams have wised up to the Flames defence activating on every rush. And yes, unsustainable shooting percentages have come back down.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yes, unsustainable shooting percentages have come back down.

They are still unsustainable. They were ridiculously high and now they're ridiculously low.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The fact that you include David Jones, a guy who has been one of our leading scorers for the month, in that list tells me a great deal about the basis of your opinion. Sufficed to say, it has not improved my outlook.



No, I simply understand what "correlation does not equal causation" means.

And a whole bunch of other stuff...

David Jones has been brutal for the majority of his time with the Flames. The fact that you hand pick the last month to point out how good he has been is the textbook definition of confirmation bias. But it is MY confirmation bias that is the problem, not your own. Maybe you should consider reading some Heider to gain a little more insight into what you post.

You might also consider that it is 'correlation does not imply causation,' which means I don't think you have as good a grasp on the subject matter as you would like to claim. That can apply directly to points a through d.

As I said earlier, players develop at different rates. Some players games will also develop better in different leagues. Michael Ferland is a great example. I think his game is actually best suited to developing in the NHL rather than more time in the AHL. He is still a work in progress, but his game is probably best suited to developing against the speed and style of play in the NHL over the AHL. Baertschi is a guy that is best served in the AHL, or Europe, where he can et his scoring touch and confidence back. Even once he gets to the NHL, if that happens, he will have to continue his development at that level as well. Again, just because you no longer play in the minors does not mean your development is complete. Depending on how a player is used, he may require further development in certain aspects of his game, but that doesn't mean he has to be dispatched to the minors to do that.

The thing here that I think is lost is the entertainment value. I really enjoyed watching the young Flames go out there, give their all, and find ways to win every night. It was exciting and it was entertaining. Now that certain veterans have returned to the lineup that same level of enthusiasm and energy is not there. The team has lost something that made them fun to watch. You can argue that the youth and enthusiasm may not contribute to the change in the team's performance, but I don't think you can argue the loss of speed and tenacity has hurt us.

Anyway, I've stated my case and I'm not going to change any minds because the narratives have become so strongly entrenched. I hope to see our kids up adjusting to the NHL game and entertaining us with their speed and skill sooner than later. You hope they spend more time in the AHL to somehow become better players playing against inferior competition. We'll just see how it all plays out over the next two years, and whether we develop more NHL players or develop career minor leaguers.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The slide has nothing to do with effort. Young players often play like their hair is on fire for their first 10-20 games in the NHL. You can't expect that temporary boost to last. The grind of a long season starts to set in, the adrenaline wears off, and they come back to earth.

Jooris has come back to earth. Granlund has come back to earth. The effects of overplaying the top-4 D are now being felt. Opposing teams have wised up to the Flames defence activating on every rush. And yes, unsustainable shooting percentages have come back down.

My point is you can prolong that urgency by rotating guys in and out of the lineup.

I dunno. Maybe bring up Ferland (not sure how without waiving someone), and rotate Raymond/Stajan/Glencross/Jooris/Granlund/Ferland/whoever depending on who is playing well. We need some kind of boost here. If I knew how to get it I would be the coach.

[GioforPM]

Guys who work their ass off? There are 5 guys in Addie that were here during the winning times that are not here now. Knight, Reinhart, Setoguchi, Ferland and Sven. Of those, I think you can only point to Ferland as having any better wrok effort than the returnees Colborne, Stajan and Raymond. And of the returnees, only Raymond has added nothing IMO. Colborne has been decent considering he's still not 100% on his shot strength. Stajan is a 4th line centre doing what that kind of guys does - win defensive zone faceoffs and not be a defensive liability.

IMO this slide is more to do with several young players hitting a wall at the same time. Brodie was a key guy in the wins, and he's cooled off a lot. Jooris and Granlund are not as productive, and their scoring was important. Monahan is still playing well, but I think the grind of playiong those top lines is wearing a bit. Byron hasn't produced in a while.

The goaltending cooled as well, with a few big blunders happeneing (which wipe out overall decent play).

The best guys who've maintained their game are Gio, Johnny, Jones, Hudler, and to some extent Glencross. I think Colborne's been OK, Stajan's been OK, Russell had a good game Saturday and Wideman's been adequate.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

My point is you can prolong that urgency by rotating guys in and out of the lineup.

I dunno. Maybe bring up Ferland (not sure how without waiving someone), and rotate Raymond/Stajan/Glencross/Jooris/Granlund/Ferland/whoever depending on who is playing well. We need some kind of boost here. If I knew how to get it I would be the coach.

I think Jooris and Granlund are waiver-proof, being call-ups.

I do think Ferland, out of all the guys sent down, would provide energy. It's possible that he is a better NHLer than AHLer as someone suggested.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Unfortunately, we're stuck with the roster as it is. We fix the team by (somehow) getting more out of the players we have. It's (IMO) too late to bring up "the kids" to bring back whatever chemistry we had 9 games ago. At that point you had guys playing their heart out, because they knew the second our vets were healthy it was musical chairs until they ran out of seats and were sent down. Bring them up now after clearing out a roster spot, and I doubt you see the same urgency.

I get the whole "correlation, causation" argument, but there is NO DOUBT in my mind (never has been) that the slide coincides with the return of Stajan, Raymond and Colbourne. Stats guys can throw whatever stat out they want, but you can't quantify intangibles and chemistry. Teams feed off guys who work their ass off in every facet of the game, which is what those kids were all doing, regardless of what they brought to the scoresheet. Vets come back and suddenly the foot comes off the pedal, urgency is lost, we get sub par goaltending, and here we are. You can see it in their play; the entire team just looks average. The forecheck is gone, the cycle is lost, and our breakout looks like it was designed by Rhett Warrener.

The only way we get better right now is if the vets start playing their bags off, or we hit another injury and a few guys come up from Adirondack. If we had the luxury of rotating Baertschi/Ferland/Granlund/Jooris/Vet thorugh the lineup on any given gameday I bet you would see the urgency return.

Without that, I just don't see the losses stopping any time soon.

The "intangibles" crowd can throw whatever they want at me too and I'm not going to believe it just because they say so. You can't explain things away with a vague concept and claim certainty. The reality is the vets are playing just as hard as they were when we were winning with the very same vets in the lineup. We aren't losing now because it was Baertschi in the lineup before vs Colborne now. That's just not true. We won 6 out of 9 games when trailing going into the third period before the vets came back. Now the vets are back and we still keep trailing going into the third, but it's the vets fault we don't come back? I don't think so. No team in history comes even close to keeping that up

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Jooris and Granlund are waiver-proof, being call-ups.

I do think Ferland, out of all the guys sent down, would provide energy. It's possible that he is a better NHLer than AHLer as someone suggested.

Yeah but you need Jooris and Granlund up and on the roster to rotate through the lineup.

You would have to move someone off the active roster, and I don't know who that is. I would suggest the player least likely to be claimed off waivers if you have to send them down. Maybe Byron? Big Ern?

Dunno. All I know is that I'm frustrated watching this team, and I'm running out of alcohol for gamedays.

[GioforPM]

The Flames aren't lacking in urgency. We trailed in the third last game, played with urgency and came back. Just lost the OT on an aodd man rush (which happens in OT).

They were flat in the first, after the empty netter. But they had flat periods before the vets came back as well - people just don't remember that because the Flames somehow managed to tie or win. It's just evening out IMO.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Maybe it's just me, but we have been playing better every loss. We're going to get a win, as long as we try to play a 60 minute game. We're not losing because of the return of the vets.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Yeah but you need Jooris and Granlund up and on the roster to rotate through the lineup.

You would have to move someone off the active roster, and I don't know who that is. I would suggest the player least likely to be claimed off waivers if you have to send them down. Maybe Byron? Big Ern?

Dunno. All I know is that I'm frustrated watching this team, and I'm running out of alcohol for gamedays.

Ern gets claimed by someone. So does Byron. Bollig might not because he makes too much for the value he brings.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

My point is you can prolong that urgency by rotating guys in and out of the lineup.

I dunno. Maybe bring up Ferland (not sure how without waiving someone), and rotate Raymond/Stajan/Glencross/Jooris/Granlund/Ferland/whoever depending on who is playing well. We need some kind of boost here. If I knew how to get it I would be the coach.

That's the thing. It is not a lack of urgency that is killing us. We are losing for pretty much the exact same reason we were winning before, just in reverse. We went from unsustainably high goaltending and shooting to unsustainably low goaltending and shooting.

Michael Ferland does not make Hiller and Ramo play better, nor does he improve our scoring rate. And just as people predicted we would eventually stop winning at such a high clip, it is self-evident that we will stop losing every time out as well.

The pendulum swings. That is not unusual for a rebuilding team, even if it is a bit crazy to see the extent to which it is swinging for us.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Jooris and Granlund are waiver-proof, being call-ups.

I do think Ferland, out of all the guys sent down, would provide energy. It's possible that he is a better NHLer than AHLer as someone suggested.

Being a call-up doesn't make a player waiver proof; after 30 days or 10 games on the roster, a waiver eligible player has to clear to go back down. However, Ferland is definitely waiver exempt due to lack of pro games, and I am fairly certain Granlund is as well.

[Tron_fdc]

So what you guys are saying is that it's just a gigantic coincidence that our stats evened out at the exact same time that the vets came back? Because that's what I'm reading.

I just don't agree with that.

Anyway, it's 2 perspectives. I'm not too concerned with who's right, I'm more concerned with a W tonight to stop the slide, however it comes. If Hiller dresses as a forward to screen the goalie I'm all for it if we can somehow score on the PP.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by New Era

David Jones has been brutal for the majority of his time with the Flames. The fact that you hand pick the last month to point out how good he has been is the textbook definition of confirmation bias. But it is MY confirmation bias that is the problem, not your own. Maybe you should consider reading some Heider to gain a little more insight into what you post.

Ok, you claim the problem is that we are losing right now because the vets suck. You mark a list of vets you want to get rid of. One of those vets is a guy who has been among our better players recently, and you think getting rid of him improves the team? And you're telling me *I* need to gain insight? Your argument is nonsensical precisely because you are ignoring the present to focus on a cherry-picked version of the past. If David Jones was ineffective as a player right now, then suggesting he should be replaced right now would make some sense. As it is, your argument is little different than suggesting we should sit Giordano because he struggled at some point in the past too.

You might also consider that it is 'correlation does not imply causation,' which means I don't think you have as good a grasp on the subject matter as you would like to claim. That can apply directly to points a through d.

The fact that you ignored the points entirely is noted. It is also completely unsurprising.

As I said earlier, players develop at different rates. Some players games will also develop better in different leagues. Michael Ferland is a great example. I think his game is actually best suited to developing in the NHL rather than more time in the AHL. He is still a work in progress, but his game is probably best suited to developing against the speed and style of play in the NHL over the AHL.

Ok, lets play ball. What makes you say this, aside from the fact that you have a clear bias towards wanting the kids around? Is it just because he was providing energy? We're already getting that in spades. It obviously isn't for offensive influence. So what makes a guy with 60 pro games in his life ready to be an every day NHLer, right now?

The thing here that I think is lost is the entertainment value. I really enjoyed watching the young Flames go out there, give their all, and find ways to win every night. It was exciting and it was entertaining. Now that certain veterans have returned to the lineup that same level of enthusiasm and energy is not there. The team has lost something that made them fun to watch. You can argue that the youth and enthusiasm may not contribute to the change in the team's performance, but I don't think you can argue the loss of speed and tenacity has hurt us.

What the team lost was unsustainable shooting and save percentages. And the guys who lost it are still here. Jooris, Wideman, Russell, Brodie. All with zero goals in the losing streak. All still playing with the same guys they were before, so you don't even have the lineup disruption card to play.

Anyway, I've stated my case and I'm not going to change any minds because the narratives have become so strongly entrenched. I hope to see our kids up adjusting to the NHL game and entertaining us with their speed and skill sooner than later. You hope they spend more time in the AHL to somehow become better players playing against inferior competition. We'll just see how it all plays out over the next two years, and whether we develop more NHL players or develop career minor leaguers.

No, you're making assumptions about what I want to see. My argument is that knee-jerk reactionary moves do not make the Flames better. I don't buy into the vapid rhetoric of "OMG WE"RE LOSING TRADE EVERYONE CALL UP EVERYONE OH GOD DO SOMETHING" that we are seeing in PGTs and several threads right now. I have known all along that a rough patch was coming, and I have known all along that people would have serious problems dealing with it when it got here.

The irony is that we are losing despite consistently matching or outplaying our opposition. We are being undermined by mistakes, and I would note that most of those mistakes are coming from the guys you don't have tagged for demotion/trade/waivers.

[SofaProfessor]

My solution? Sign me to a league maximum one game contract. If I don't immediately spark the team to a win, I'll retire gracefully.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by SofaProfessor

My solution? Sign me to a league maximum one game contract. If I don't immediately spark the team to a win, I'll retire gracefully.

I was like 75% in the faceoff circle in beer league last night, we could be a line? Our Corsi could be great.