Your Solution For Fixing The Flames

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I've heard numerous times now that this year's draft is like last year's plus McDavid and Eichel

You could pick a guy like Bennett/Draisaitl/Dal Colle at 8 or 9 this year. It's crazy.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Why? Injuries will happen. Make room, and then if they struggle? Let 'em be?

Historically in the past 5 years or so the team has always performed better with fresh blood from the farm in the lineup. It's probably the adrenaline and jump from receiving the opportunity, but it's helped nonetheless. Also Ferland was a part of the never say die attitude that was flowing through this lineup a few weeks ago. He may not have got on the scoresheet much, but he generated a ton of opportunities, and helped us more than he hurt us. Can't say the same for the guys coming off IR. They've had games under their belt and it still hasn't turned around. Would rather run with the young pups just like we were doing when we went on that tear.

And simply put, Poirier has earned his look.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Historically in the past 5 years or so the team has always performed better with fresh blood from the farm in the lineup. It's probably the adrenaline and jump from receiving the opportunity, but it's helped nonetheless. Also Ferland was a part of the never say die attitude that was flowing through this lineup a few weeks ago. He may not have got on the scoresheet much, but he generated a ton of opportunities, and helped us more than he hurt us. Can't say the same for the guys coming off IR. They've had games under their belt and it still hasn't turned around. Would rather run with the young pups just like we were doing when we went on that tear.

And simply put, Poirier has earned his look.

That adrenaline rush is not long lasting. Ferland was good while up, but not great or irreplaceable. Up or down he isn't changing the fortunes of the team, and has a lot more opportunity for minutes in Addy.

Poirier started really hot but has been cool the last while. He deserves a Cup of coffee, but you don't move a vet to give him that when you know someone will get injured. That's just poor asset management



The desire to have youth out there is like the excitement of scratching a lottery ticket. You may be finding new found talent every time you call someone up. The thing is, Addy doesn't hurt any of them. More minutes will not hinder them, period. Forcing bodies away just to bring someone up would be silly as the current season of the Calgary flames is not more important than the development of these kids. If the right deal is available, maybe one roster spot up front, but that's about it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by New Era

I was answering your inane question about dealing with the salary cap, like that is some excuse for the state of the team. You made it sound like the Flames hands are completely tied because they have to meet the cap floor. That should not be a constraint that prevents the team from getting better. If it is, the system is completely broken.

When it comes to the 'inane' suggestion that the Flames go full-Oiler and trade all the vets to bring up cheap rookies, then yes, I will point out that the Flames' hands are largely tied. We have built a small cushion from the cap floor that will allow us to move a couple bodies at the deadline, but we can't do that now without falling under the floor at some point soon. That, whether you like it or not, is the system and you will have to deal with it.

And your "solution" isn't just impractical, it is actively problematic for the reasons Street Pharmacist notes.Not only would you disrupt your own locker room by moving popular guys out, you propose to bring in someone whose only purpose is to waste a roster spot, then insult them by telling them they are only there because we needed an "ugly contract". Short-sighted actions like that would go around the league real fast and cripple our reputation.

Here's the question you need to answer. How exactly does the team get better if they won't play the best performing players they have under contract?

Mason Raymond: 5g 2a
Joe Colborne: 0g 9a
Matt Stjan: 1g 3a
Michael Ferland: 0g 1a
Sven Baertschi: 0g 3a
Corban Knight: 0g 0a
Max Reinhart: 0g 0a

"Best performing" is a highly subjective term, but I can say that anyone speaking honestly would not judge performance by age. Bring Ferland, for example, back as an energy guy? Ok, sure. Except we already get the same from Jooris and Byron - all three with a similar lack of offensive production right now too. So what does that gain us?

If they don't, aren't they just going full Oiler and tanking as hard as they can to try and get that precious high draft pick some of you want so bad?

"Going full Oiler" means dumping the vets and throwing the kids to the wolves with no thought or consideration toward their long term development. That is what you are proposing we do.

But most importantly, you need to step back and realize that real life is not an EA video game. You also have to realize that a hot start to the season does not mean we should abandon our long term plans because some fans need that instant hit of gratification.


MOD EDIT: Knock off the insults and belittling.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

How exactly does the team get better if they won't play the best performing players they have under contract?

The team gets better in the long term by being diligent and patient in the development of all of its prospects. That will typically mean spending time - sometimes years - playing in a development league. And even if a young player is better than a player on the NHL roster, his long-term development may be best served by playing in the AHL.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

When it comes to the 'inane' suggestion that the Flames go full-Oiler and trade all the vets to bring up cheap rookies, then yes, I will point out that the Flames' hands are largely tied. We have built a small cushion from the cap floor that will allow us to move a couple bodies at the deadline, but we can't do that now without falling under the floor at some point soon. That, whether you like it or not, is the system and you will have to deal with it.

And your "solution" isn't just impractical, it is actively stupid for the reasons Street Pharmacist notes. Not only would you disrupt your own locker room by moving popular guys out, you propose to bring in someone whose only purpose is to waste a roster spot, then insult them by telling them they are only there because we needed an "ugly contract". Short-sighted idiocy like that would go around the league real fast and cripple our reputation.




Mason Raymond: 5g 2a
Joe Colborne: 0g 9a
Matt Stjan: 1g 3a
Michael Ferland: 0g 1a
Sven Baertschi: 0g 3a
Corban Knight: 0g 0a
Max Reinhart: 0g 0a

"Best performing" is a highly subjective term, but I can say that anyone speaking honestly would not judge performance by age. Bring Ferland, for example, back as an energy guy? Ok, sure. Except we already get the same from Jooris and Byron - all three with a similar lack of offensive production right now too. So what does that gain us?



The fact that you are invoking "going full Oiler" without even the slightest clue of what that means tells me a great deal about the quality of your argument. "Going full Oiler" means dumping the vets and throwing the kids to the wolves with no thought or consideration toward their long term development. That is what you are proposing we do.

But most importantly, you need to step back and realize that real life is not an EA video game. You also have to realize that a hot start to the season does not mean we should abandon our long term plans because some fans need that instant hit of gratification.

i'm not going to take the bait and respond to your insults. I never said trade all the vets and go with all kids. I said give the positions to those who have earned them and have been most effective. There is more than enough veteran leadership on the team that underperforming players such as Bollig, Jones, Diaz and Engelland could be replaced without feeling a leadership vacuum.

I'm not buying the chemistry argument either. The team was performing its best and looking like a team that was playing for each other when the vets were on the sidelines and the youth was injected into the lineup. The losing streak began with the return of the vets. The team also hasn't played with the same heart or enthusiasm. Coincidence? I don't think so. You want to send the kids down to Adirondack to play together and become a team, but that is what they were doing up here and finding success. But for some reason you think they should be back in the minors doing that instead of in Calgary doing that, because it doesn't comply with some time table you have in your head.

Maybe you need to step back and realize life is not an EA video game, and players progress at different schedules. Some kids take longer, like Baertschi, but other ones have big development spurts that has them knocking on the door sooner. You also have to realize that many of the players that are knocking on the door aren't 18 or 19 year old kids. The ones in question are 20 something's and have done some time in developmental leagues already. Look around the league at the top clubs and see how long each of their top youngsters spent in the AHL. When a kid is knocking on the door as hard as some of the Flames prospects are, room needs to be made for the betterment of the team.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The team gets better in the long term by being diligent and patient in the development of all of its prospects. In most cases, that will mean spending time - years maybe - in a development league.

I don't buy that Detroit development mantra any more. The top teams are doing it differently now and with greater success. The CBS has altered the development game and you can't sit on players in the minors forever anymore.

Looking at the Chicago Blackhawks roster, Brandon Saad played a whopping 31 games in the AHL (8g, 12a) before being permanently called up. Marcus Krueger spent 34 games in the AHL (8g, 14a) before his call up. Andrew Shaw saw 2 stints of 38 and then 28 games. Nicklaus Hjalmarsson 2 stints of 47 and 52 games before he was a fixture. Brent Seabrook spent 3 games in the minors. Duncan Keith 2 seasons after taking an unorthodox road to the NHL.

I'm all for making players earn their way up, but when they are out playing the veterans on the team they need to stay up and continue their growth and progression as players. Players can only adjust to the speed and rigors of the NHL game if you expose them to the NHL game. We aren't talking about players from the 2013 or 2014 drafts here. We're talking about guys taken in the 2010 and 2011 drafts. These are players who have 3-4 years of development under their belts. They should be stepping in right now.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

Look around the league at the top clubs and see how long each of their top youngsters spent in the AHL. When a kid is knocking on the door as hard as some of the Flames prospects are, room needs to be made for the betterment of the team.

• Tyler Johnson played 4 years of junior, then played 137 games in the AHL.
• Ondrej Palat played 117 games in the AHL.
• Torey Krug played 3 years of university then a season in the AHL.
• Sami Vatanen played in Europe until he was 21, then played parts of two seasons in the AHL.
• Roman Josi spent 4 years bouncing between the Swiss elite league, the AHL, and the NHL.
• Brendan Smith played 3 years of college and then the better part of 3 seasons in the AHL.
• Gustav Nyquist played 3 years of college and then parts of 3 seasons in the AHL before sticking with the Wings.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by New Era

i'm not going to take the bait and respond to your insults. I never said trade all the vets and go with all kids. I said give the positions to those who have earned them and have been most effective. There is more than enough veteran leadership on the team that underperforming players such as Bollig, Jones, Diaz and Engelland could be replaced without feeling a leadership vacuum.

The fact that you include David Jones, a guy who has been one of our leading scorers for the month, in that list tells me a great deal about the basis of your opinion. Sufficed to say, it has not improved my outlook.

I'm not buying the chemistry argument either. The team was performing its best and looking like a team that was playing for each other when the vets were on the sidelines and the youth was injected into the lineup. The losing streak began with the return of the vets. The team also hasn't played with the same heart or enthusiasm. Coincidence? I don't think so. You want to send the kids down to Adirondack to play together and become a team, but that is what they were doing up here and finding success. But for some reason you think they should be back in the minors doing that instead of in Calgary doing that, because it doesn't comply with some time table you have in your head.

No, I simply understand what "correlation does not equal causation" means.

Also, like most people who so desperately hate veterans that they want to believe guys getting healthy caused our downfall, you have never once explained the following:

a) How removing three players in Knight, Baertschi and Ferland with a combined 0 goals caused our offence to stop scoring.
b) Why we have been much stronger in terms of puck possession and generally outplayed our opposition despite losing
c) How removing Knight, Baertschi and Ferland caused Wideman and Russell (especially) and even Brodie and Gio (at times) to fumble the puck much more often.
d) How a guy like Josh Jooris, despite playing with the same two linemates (Hudler and Gaudreau) and getting the same ice time, completely stopped scoring.

You are so blind to reality that you are trying to blame Raymond, Stajan and Colborne for the team's losses without actually understanding where the offence actually dried up. It is true that those three are not producing offensively. But neither is Josh Jooris (0g 1a on the losing skid) anymore. Most importantly, neither are Brodie, Wideman and Russell (0g 5a combined during this skid). And honestly, Engelland and Smid/Diaz have given us better defence than Wideman and Russell have as well in December. But you've allowed your confirmation bias to mask that.

Maybe you need to step back and realize life is not an EA video game, and players progress at different schedules. Some kids take longer, like Baertschi, but other ones have big development spurts that has them knocking on the door sooner. You also have to realize that many of the players that are knocking on the door aren't 18 or 19 year old kids. The ones in question are 20 something's and have done some time in developmental leagues already. Look around the league at the top clubs and see how long each of their top youngsters spent in the AHL. When a kid is knocking on the door as hard as some of the Flames prospects are, room needs to be made for the betterment of the team.

Name them.
Ferland? 59 professional games in his entire pro career to this point. You mean to tell me he's done developing?
Baertschi? You already noted he is still developing.
Wotherspoon? His time is coming. And I think the intention is that when he comes up, the team expects it is permanent. But that is for when there is either a big injury on the blue line, or when we get later in the season and potentially can move a Smid to another team. But right now, the org would rather he gets big minutes in key situations in Addy than play third pair minutes in Calgary.
Poirier? 27 total professional games. Buried at left wing. No sense rushing him either.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

These are players who have 3-4 years of development under their belts. They should be stepping in right now.

Which players, specifically, are you talking about?

The Flames currently have seven 1st or 2nd year players on the roster (I consider Colborne and Byron 2nd year players, as they didn't establish themselves as full-time NHLers until last season).

11 players age 24 or under have skated on the Flames NHL roster this season. I'm pretty sure that's the most in the league.

This is already an extraordinarily young, inexperienced team. You want to throw two or three more rookies into the mix this season? When we know two or three rookies will almost certainly make the team out of camp next season as well?

Sorry, but I find it hard to imagine an NHL roster with 10 players in their 1st or 2nd season, and several more in their third season. Not when there's a salary floor to consider, and the example of a train wreck of a team up the road where too many players were given too much responsibility at too young an age.

I expect the highly skilled prospects to make the team at 20-21, and the second tier prospects to make the team at 22-24. And of course, many of them won't make the jump at all.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Poirier? 27 total professional games. Buried at left wing. No sense rushing him either.

Agree with most of your post, but it's worth mentioning that Poirier is a natural RWer, which changes things a bit.

You could say the Flames would be going the Oilers route if they were to call-up Poirier now, but I really don't see the harm in it. Don't gift him a spot or sign him to a 6 x 6mil contract, but see where he's at in the NHL level.

Certainly there's areas of his game to work on, but it's hard to measure yourself against NHLers until you get a taste.

Trade deadline will be exciting this year, regardless of where the Flames are in the standings.

[Street Pharmacist]

I completely agree with you Resolute, but the insults you always through on at the end get a little off putting

[ForeverFlameFan]

Management already claimed that you need to beat a veteran out of a spot in the lineup. Gaudreau won the opening roster spot prior to the season starting, and then Jooris beat out Setoguchi for his roster spot on the Calgary Flames. Treliving already stated that he will make room for you if you beat a veteran out of his spot.

For Granlund, Ferland and Baertschi, I am not totally convinced that they have beaten a veteran out of their spot.

Know why we aren't winning? Because our energy, intensity level needs to increase. Our Adirondack players did that for us, we would be lying if we said they didn't inject the energy in our team.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Agree with most of your post, but it's worth mentioning that Poirier is a natural RWer, which changes things a bit.

You could say the Flames would be going the Oilers route if they were to call-up Poirier now, but I really don't see the harm in it. Don't gift him a spot or sign him to a 6 x 6mil contract, but see where he's at in the NHL level.

Certainly there's areas of his game to work on, but it's hard to measure yourself against NHLers until you get a taste.

Trade deadline will be exciting this year, regardless of where the Flames are in the standings.

The Flames will certainly do this but barring injury, it will happen toward the end of the season. Poirier will see NHL ice time.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Management already claimed that you need to beat a veteran out of a spot in the lineup. Gaudreau won the opening roster spot prior to the season starting, and then Jooris beat out Setoguchi for his roster spot on the Calgary Flames. Treliving already stated that he will make room for you if you beat a veteran out of his spot.

For Granlund, Ferland and Baertschi, I am not totally convinced that they have beaten a veteran out of their spot.

Ferland and Baertschi did not. Granlund is an edge case right now. He's sliding a bit, but he's also continued to show the spark too. His position is largely secured by the long term nature of Backlund's injury. Either way, a couple of these guys will force the Flames to move a veteran centre in the offseason.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Ferland and Baertschi did not. Granlund is an edge case right now. He's sliding a bit, but he's also continued to show the spark too. His position is largely secured by the long term nature of Backlund's injury. Either way, a couple of these guys will force the Flames to move a veteran centre in the offseason.

I am convinced that Granlund could use more time in the AHL, especially if he wants to stay a center. At this point Backlund is a better option, when he comes back of course.

[Vinny01]

Late to the party on this one but I agree with those that say stay the course. This summer could be a big one for the Flames. If the current team can pull out of this funk and finish 7-10th so be it otherwise we likely are getting a top 10 pick which Soubds pretty great for this draft.

Picking top 3 would be unreal but unlikely now. If we finish 10th that is not no mans land IMO because the team already has a solid foundation of youth they are building around and picking 11-14 is not the end of the world.

I think next year the Flames take a significant step forward with Bennett entering the mix and another year for Monahan/Johnny progressing

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I am convinced that Granlund could use more time in the AHL, especially if he wants to stay a center. At this point Backlund is a better option, when he comes back of course.

I feel that Granlund is very close to being an effective NHLer and just needs more size and consistency to his game. Both those attributes can be developed in the AHL just as well as the NHL (if not more so). There are nights where he has top 6 minutes but rarely controls the puck. Other nights I see him successfully gaining the zone or forechecking with determination.

I often see him getting stood up at the line and not having the strength to push forward which is the only real downside I've seen in his game. He has an NHL caliber wrist shot and is a decent passer.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I feel that Granlund is very close to being an effective NHLer and just needs more size and consistency to his game. Both those attributes can be developed in the AHL just as well as the NHL (if not more so). There are nights where he has top 6 minutes but rarely controls the puck. Other nights I see him successfully gaining the zone or forechecking with determination.

I often see him getting stood up at the line and not having the strength to push forward which is the only real downside I've seen in his game. He has an NHL caliber wrist shot and is a decent passer.

Bolded is what I think is the only thing that won't keep him up.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Which players, specifically, are you talking about?

The Flames currently have seven 1st or 2nd year players on the roster (I consider Colborne and Byron 2nd year players, as they didn't establish themselves as full-time NHLers until last season).

11 players age 24 or under have skated on the Flames NHL roster this season. I'm pretty sure that's the most in the league.

This is already an extraordinarily young, inexperienced team. You want to throw two or three more rookies into the mix this season? When we know two or three rookies will almost certainly make the team out of camp next season as well?

Sorry, but I find it hard to imagine an NHL roster with 10 players in their 1st or 2nd season, and several more in their third season. Not when there's a salary floor to consider, and the example of a train wreck of a team up the road where too many players were given too much responsibility at too young an age.

I expect the highly skilled prospects to make the team at 20-21, and the second tier prospects to make the team at 22-24. And of course, many of them won't make the jump at all.

Up until the veteran leadership came back Stajan - Raymond the Flames were doing great.

Now they have reverted to the extended exhibition season where the win-loses do not matter as much as performance evaluation.

This is what a lot of people were expecting at the start of the season.


There is a consensus (brought on by blind fan-boy support??) that the Flames are playing well over this 8 game losing streak and that they have been NHL level competitive. .

I think the priority is that the Flames find out about their abundance of guys they have 22-24 years old.... call it the Jooris class: Knight Agostino, Hanowski, Arnold, Rienhart, Wolf, Ferland.



Next year they will be a lot closer to becoming an AHL journeymen with less of a chance of getting a real NHL tryout.

If Setoguchi wasn't total done and had popped in 2-3 goals in the exhibition season he might have taken away Jooris's big NHL tryout.

I would like to see these guys all get a 10 game NHL try-out taking Raymond's ice time.

I really don't care if Raymond (or Stajan) can play well enough to hang on to a NHL job for another 4 years. They might good enough to hang on as 3rd liner on a non-playoff team.