2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I don't know what else to say beside I think you are misinterpreting the purpose of my post.

C4L offered up Ottawa as an example of possibly rushing a rebuild.

You countered with TB as an example of successfully running with multiple rookies.

I suggested that those rookies were well seasoned. And that they didn't all start on opening night. And that the Flames may (very likely will) be in the same boat sooner or later.

Seems pretty straight-forward

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Setoguchi, Bollig, and McGrattan are non factors in this IMO, they are your 12-14 forwards. You don't make your top prospects extra forwards who sit in the press box, they need to play if they are on the roster.

Baertschi proved last year in the AHL that he can only play LW due to his struggles on the right. People may say they were putting him in a position to fail by playing him on the RW but I disagree and think they were seeing if they could shift him there to get to the NHL even faster since it's a position of weakness.

He needed to win a top 9 LW spot and up until Thursday night he probably would have, but Gaudreau ripped the spot away with his 3 point night. Glencross and Raymond weren't losing their spots out of camp, and we're no less effective than Sven.

Sven just needs to keep his head up because Raymond or Glencross will get injured eventually and he needs to prove he is the first call up and worthy of that spot.

Seto will be in a top 9 spot. 4th line is likely going to have Bouma on it, leaving setogucci as a 3rd line player which is a role Sven could play.

[dino7c]

Sven will play for the Flames this year, some of you need to get a grip...Seto will likely be in the press box is that what you want for Sven opening night?

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And again, who is to say they won't? Opening night is only one day on an 82 game schedule

I am sure you will have another excuse at game 20. Just like many said that the signing of Setoguchi and the trade for Bollig was no big deal. I mean if a kid bears them out they can just be demoted right?

The bottom line is that management said one thing and did another. If you and I can see it you can be darn sure that kid losing millions and moving east to ride the bus sees it.

Sounds like Baertschi is pretty devastated. Now if he fails to perform immediately in the AHL he will be "sulking". In any other profession the managers would be accountable for piss poor performance management and a failure to account for basic human emotions. Not here though.

Speaking of Baertschi specifically, it certainly reaks more of a Turris then a Kadri situation. Really bad management by the Flames so far. Yo Yo mind games beginning to end.

[Lil Pedro]

Its not mind games; he's not good enough to play consistently in the NHL. Moreover, other rookies have progressed along faster than him. Kid needs to play with a chip on his shoulder in the A and prove that he belongs up here. With how injuries frequently occur, he should be up here soon

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Just to point out an example a little opposite that of C4L.

Tampa had 6 rookies play more than 50 games last season. Palat, Johnson, Gudas, Brown, Kucherov, and Panik. Most of these players played more than 70 games. Palat and Johnson emerged in particular as very good young players who weren't given much thought by most outside of Tampa.

Most people didn't think that Tampa would perform as strongly as they did last season. The Lightning didn't go out in free agency and fill all roster spots with veterans. Of course, key injuries (Stamkos) and cocaine (Malone) played a role in giving these young players more opportunities, ultimately, the team far exceed expectations.

So let's not act like the Senators or the Oilers are the only possible outcomes. We currently have one 21 year old rookie who dominated the NCAA on the roster. If we're extreme in one direction, it's being conservative.

You didn't prove the 'opposite' though. I would agree you just proved my point, in fact.

Palat wasn't rushed to the NHL. He spent 2 seasons in the AHL, and has had considerably more success than Baertschi in the AHL. He was nearly a PPG. That is the essence of my post, actually.

Tyler Johnson is another one. He spent 2 season in the AHL - going nearly a PPG, and then over a PPG, with a call-up in-between within his AHL career as well. Found a way to stick.

Gudas spent 3 full seasons in the AHL.

Brown spent 2 years in the NCAA, then got a cup of coffee (5 games) with Tampa, then played a full season in the AHL, then started in the AHL for 13 games before coming back up to the NHL.

Kucherov - stayed in the KHL for another year before coming over to the CHL, then started in the AHL for 17 games before joining the Lightning and sticking.

Panik - Stayed for two full years in Juniors post draft, then into the AHL and has been bouncing between the AHL and NHL. Looks like he is going to stick, but not a guarantee. Point is, he was a 2009 draft pick who still hasn't become a regular yet, though it is likely this season.

Actually, all the players you listed have ironically been brought up along slowly, for the most part been sent down to the AHL and then recalled when there was an opportunity. Isn't that what my entire post was really pointing at? How is this proving me wrong? In my opinion, this is how prospects SHOULD be brought along, and you just showed me a team that is on the upswing doing just that. Thanks!!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

I am sure you will have another excuse at game 20. Just like many said that the signing of Setoguchi and the trade for Bollig was no big deal. I mean if a kid bears them out they can just be demoted right?

The bottom line is that management said one thing and did another. If you and I can see it you can be darn sure that kid losing millions and moving east to ride the bus sees it.

Sounds like Baertschi is pretty devastated. Now if he fails to perform immediately in the AHL he will be "sulking". In any other profession the managers would be accountable for piss poor performance management and a failure to account for basic human emotions. Not here though.

Speaking of Baertschi specifically, it certainly reaks more of a Turris then a Kadri situation. Really bad management by the Flames so far. Yo Yo mind games beginning to end.

Actually, I don't see it so please don't speak for me.

Gaudreau beat Baertschi for the spot. And Glencross' spot was safe.

Bollig will be on the 4th line. And Setoguchi will play well or he will end up in the press box.

Baertschi will play in Calgary when he is ready.

Enough with the hyperbole (devastated, mind games)

[MissTeeks]

Hey, at least it's a good player getting sent down that people are getting upset about and not Dustin Boyd being put on waivers. That's a good sign, right?

Let's talk about Johnny for a bit:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...038/story.html

The Garden State, New Jersey, can count among its own any number of famous sons and daughters.

Hoboken, of course, has an exclusive claim on Ol’ Blue Eyes, the Chairman, Frank Sinatra. The Boss, Bruce Springsteen, is a Long Branch boy.

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin, the second man ever to set foot on the moon, hails from Cedar Ridge. Three-time Oscar winner Meryl Streep is from Sunset, illusionist David Copperfield grew up in Metuchen.

From Monmouth Beach, BoSox manager John Farrell. Neptune City, Danny DeVito. Newark, Shaquille O’Neal.

And Carney’s Point, all 17 square miles of her, tucked into the western portion of the township of Salem? Well, Wikipedia lists two:

John Gaudreau, professional hockey player.

And . . .

“Bruce Willis,” replies Johnny Gaudreau. “Of course I knew that. I mean, in my time, he’s been in a lot of movies. A really famous person.

“I like him. I like his movies. I know my mom went to the same high school as him.

“It’s kinda cool to say you have the same hometown as Bruce Willis. Everybody knows Bruce Willis. Hopefully I can meet him someday.”

“Every day I’m here,” he’s saying this early afternoon after practice at the Scotiabank Saddledome, “is a like a present for me. You know, a gift I get to open. Not many people get the chance to be where I’m at today.

“It’s unique. Not something I take for granted.”

His new skipper, Bob Hartley, gushes over the way the kid can create space.

“He makes a move, or throws a fake, and two feet of space is suddenly five or 10 feet of space. This you cannot teach. This is something you’re born with.”

Given the genetics at play, and the half-hour proximity to Philadelphia from Carney’s Point, Gaudreau quickly developed a fondness for the Flyers, with big John LeClair and pint-sized Daniel Briere (“Playing against him the other night,” he marvels of the Flames-Avalanche pre-season tilt at the ’Dome, “was . . . weird. I found myself doing a double-take. But it was a lot of fun”) particular favourites.

“My dad has always had the rink. Whenever I wanted ice, I had it. In the summers now, whenever, I can hop on the ice, bring some buddies. That’s pretty special.

“My dad has meant so much to my hockey. He coached me my first 12 or 13 years of hockey and taught me everything I know. When it came down to being a coach, he was a good coach. When it came to being a father, a dad, he put the hockey stuff aside. And that’s what helped me become a better player, I think. That separation.”

Pre-puck-drop, the opposing coach wandered over to where the Fighting Saints were limbering up, the players kicking a soccer ball around in the hallway. Wee Johnny was, as always, involved.

“After the game, the coach tells me about standing there and says: ‘I thought it was really nice, bringing your stick boy with you. Not many teams do that.’

“He didn’t realize until after Johnny had a goal and an assist during the game that it was the same kid.

“He was dead serious. And then he goes: ‘After that, I didn’t know what to do. Coach my team or just stand back and watch him because I became his biggest fan that night.’ ”

Guy Gaudreau remembers his son’s joy the day the Flames selected him 104th overall in the 2011 draft.

“That, I think, gave him an extra gear. You could kinda see him thinking ‘Maybe I do have a shot.’ He was so excited to be drafted. People were saying sixth or seventh round. And Calgary took him higher. I remember him telling me ‘Dad, I want to prove to Calgary that I can play there and I’ll help them.’ ”

A small man with a big talent. And if the stars align correctly, an even bigger future.

Exactly how big? Who would hazard a guess? Maybe big enough, even, that Bruce Willis, the other famous son from the Salem township of Carney’s Point, might be heard during some interview on some generic film set in Hollywood in the not too distant future, saying:

“It’s cool to say you have the same hometown as Johnny Gaudreau. Everybody knows Johnny Gaudreau.

“Hopefully I can meet him someday.”

[Dajazz]

Holy overreaction!

By all accounts Sven did not impress in camp. So he's behind Glencross, Gaudreau & Raymond on the depth chart. Supplant Bollig on the fourth line, lol, yea...

He can't play RW so the whole Setoguchi-discussion is moot. Sven's lost out to Granlund and Gaudreau (and Bennett), due to performance and the fact he's not versatile.


Jooris, 24yo who's had few good preseason games but has failed to impress in the AHL. Ferland was a keeper though, but will get called up.

Sven will be back no doubt, on the LEFT.

[wingmaker]

This thread makes me sad for CP. Embarassing.

The two best rookie forwards at camp are still with the team...Gaudreau and Bennett. So I guess the "earned, never given" actually holds well and true. Baertschi wasn't even the third best rookie, as Jooris definitely out played him. So why do people think he deserves a spot on the roster?

Setoguchi is a depth right winger. He doesn't even play the same position as Sven. Plus, there is a good chance he will start the season in the press box if Bennett lines up at centre and JC moves over to right wing. Sven was never in contention for his job. If anything, Jooris was the player who had a shot there and should be the player people are more upset about.

But, really, why be upset at all because the best two rookies are still with the team. Why is that not what people are talking about? Sven has been passed over by better young players. How about we get excited about them instead of lamenting over a player who has yet to prove anything at the pro level?

[djsFlames]

I hope Johnny rips Vancouver a new ###hole on wednesday.

Show our rivals what they're going to have to put up with for the next decade.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Nme-Territory

As far as I'm concerned, vets deserve a shot to prove themselves in the regular season. Let Seto and Jones and whomever else show their stuff when it matters. If that doesn't pan out, the guys that deserve call-ups will get them. We'll see the team we want to see soon enough.

I agree with you if you're a veteran player that has performed well the past few seasons but has had a "slow" training camp. Setoguchi definetly doesn't fit in that category. He's vet who's on a downhill slide and he should have been fighting tooth and nail at training camp to prove he's better than what he's shown the last few years.
He didn't.

I hope Treliving can admit that he made a mistake in offering a contract to him and he fixes the problem soon, thus allowing more deserving rookies to take his spot.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

This thread makes me sad for CP. Embarassing.

The two best rookie forwards at camp are still with the team...Gaudreau and Bennett. So I guess the "earned, never given" actually holds well and true. Baertschi wasn't even the third best rookie, as Jooris definitely out played him. So why do people think he deserves a spot on the roster?

Setoguchi is a depth right winger. He doesn't even play the same position as Sven. Plus, there is a good chance he will start the season in the press box if Bennett lines up at centre and JC moves over to right wing. Sven was never in contention for his job. If anything, Jooris was the player who had a shot there and should be the player people are more upset about.

But, really, why be upset at all because the best two rookies are still with the team. Why is that not what people are talking about? Sven has been passed over by better young players. How about we get excited about them instead of lamenting over a player who has yet to prove anything at the pro level?

Bennett doesn't count. He hasn't made the team and he'll be here long enough to play the nine games he's allowed, and unless he totally blows the doors off, he'll be sent back to Kingston.

Only one rookie made the team this year... JG, nobody else and as others have pointed out, this was the only possibility this year.. one spot open and JG took it. "Always earned, never given" is just management blowing smoke up everyone's ass... unless I'm proven wrong in the near future by someone who made the cut either getting traded for pics or prospects or getting waived.
I hope I'm proved wrong.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Bennett doesn't count. He hasn't made the team and he'll be here long enough to play the nine games he's allowed, and unless he totally blows the doors off, he'll be sent back to Kingston.

... at which point, the Flames can call someone else up.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by SebC

... at which point, the Flames can call someone else up.

What? To sit in the press box while Setoguchi plays?

[Freeway]

Georgie Johnson is pretty good at spinning a yarn, isn't he?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I agree with you if you're a veteran player that has performed well the past few seasons but has had a "slow" training camp. Setoguchi definetly doesn't fit in that category. He's vet who's on a downhill slide and he should have been fighting tooth and nail at training camp to prove he's better than what he's shown the last few years.
He didn't.

I hope Treliving can admit that he made a mistake in offering a contract to him and he fixes the problem soon, thus allowing more deserving rookies to take his spot.

A player in his early to mid 30's would be a good description for a player on a downhill slide. Seto is only 27 and still has enough years left to bring his talent level back to where it was in San Jose and his first year in Minnesota.

Treliving took a risk on Seto gambling he could ressurect his career. Chances are he may be a bust come mid season, and if that's the case, guys like Sven will be given their opportunity.

I think too much is being made of the opening day roster.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Rerun

What? To sit in the press box while Setoguchi plays?

To shuffle into the lineup when players are not playing well?

[stemit14]

Everyone saying that setoguchi is a RW and therefore is not in competition with baertschi is forgetting that Raymond can play the off wing so if Seto wasn't there, Raymond could take his spot on RW... Leaving a spot for baertschi on the left side.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by kehatch

I am sure you will have another excuse at game 20. Just like many said that the signing of Setoguchi and the trade for Bollig was no big deal. I mean if a kid bears them out they can just be demoted right?

The bottom line is that management said one thing and did another. If you and I can see it you can be darn sure that kid losing millions and moving east to ride the bus sees it.

Sounds like Baertschi is pretty devastated. Now if he fails to perform immediately in the AHL he will be "sulking". In any other profession the managers would be accountable for piss poor performance management and a failure to account for basic human emotions. Not here though.

Speaking of Baertschi specifically, it certainly reaks more of a Turris then a Kadri situation. Really bad management by the Flames so far. Yo Yo mind games beginning to end.

This has got to be one of the worst posts I've ever seen on CP...