2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by DropIt

What did Setogucci do better than Baertschi did the entire camp is my question.

Sure, the points weren't there but the offense was. He created chances and continued to play well with Monahan like he did last year. He was better positionally, physically, possessionally anh effort-wise than Seto was. There wasnt a single thing that I saw from Setogucci that I thought "well, he is better than Sven at doing [that]."

I think he earned a spot in camp this year, and even though it never has changed and likely never will change, I am sick of hearing that jobs will be earned.

Why does Seto have to be better than Sven? It's actually the other way around. And not simply because Seto is a vet blah blah. Sven worked on some areas in his game that needed improving, and they did. He was also invisible (holistically) offensively as well.

The critics of the a Flames handling will say they asked Sven to do this, he did, and now he's being punished. What The Flames actually need Sven to be is not a liability when he doesn't have the puck, and still generate offence. That's the type of player Sven will need to be to make it in this league, on any team. Sven has yet to show he can pull it all together. Previously he showed he could generate offence, but was god awful at the rest. This year he comes in and showed he could become "respectable" at the areas he struggled in, but at almost the complete sacrifice of the things that will make him a special player. Simply out, he hasn't put it together yet. So if a little more seasoning (hopefully not much) is required in the AHL to get it together, then let's give him his medicine whether he wants it or not. In the long run, it will benefit both him and the Flames, even if it means we have to suffer through the organization learning what Seto is all about for the first quarter of the year, it was never about this year anyway.

Anyone who feels Sven impressed this pre season is either lying to themselves or had set the bar very low (or very specific) for Sven. He was one of a number of very average to meh forwards so far. While it is true, some of those other meh forwards remain on the NHL roster, it doesn't mean this isn't the right move for a player we are more concerned about making this team 3 years from now versus this year.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Colborne, who was god awful to start last season, was gifted a spot because he wasn't exempt from waivers. It turned out by the end of the season, and at least from the the pre-season this year, he's become a decent player. He didn't earn those minutes, yet he still developed and is continuing to develop. People seem to be just fine with Colborne this season. It turned out keeping him in the NHL was good for him.

So, the team saw some things, maybe in practice, that they liked in Colborne. They kept him up, worked with him, and he's turning into a decent find. They were right about him.

And somehow this proves the opposite? That's it's okay to suck and stay with the big club because you can still develop that way?

Why can't it be as simple as he was doing all the right things, exactly what they (and not you) asked, and it worked out?

[hummdeedoo]

This whole year is a tryout.

R-E-L-A-X

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by the2bears

So, the team saw some things, maybe in practice, that they liked in Colborne. They kept him up, worked with him, and he's turning into a decent find. They were right about him.

And somehow this proves the opposite? That's it's okay to suck and stay with the big club because you can still develop that way?

Why can't it be as simple as he was doing all the right things, exactly what they (and not you) asked, and it worked out?

That's fine if you disagree.

To me, I felt it was pretty obvious that Colborne was kept up because of waivers.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

That's fine if you disagree.

To me, I felt it was pretty obvious that Colborne was kept up because of waivers.

Whatever the reason may be, though, it looks to be working out well, right? I'm going to trust Treliving to continue to do the right thing until there's something more definitive to prove him wrong.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by hummdeedoo

This whole year is a tryout.

R-E-L-A-X

I'm sure the season ticket holders must be tickled to hear that.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by New Era

I think Baertschi's comments area part of the reason he was sent down. He really does appear to me mentally immature and fragile. He needs to toughen up quite a bit.

I think he's sensitive. That's not necessarily the same as fragile. He's disappointed and didn't hide it.

Here are some comments from him earlier this week:

“No, I’m really happy for them,” the good-natured kid said Friday at lunchtime before departing for the Flames’ pre-season finale in Winnipeg. “They’ve been great. On the other side, I’ve had my chances and haven’t put them in. That’s on me. In the end if they score, it looks great on them. It makes the decision-making tougher, for sure, for management and coaches.”

Baertschi laughed.

“But I’m not a guy who, if someone else scores during training camp, goes, ‘Oh, (darn).’ ”

“This year is quite special,” said Baertschi. “With Johnny coming out of college. Sam (Bennett) got drafted and he’s been great. And (Michael Ferland) had a great camp. So it gets really tight.

“It was a great thing for this organization to have such a great camp because it brings the best out of everybody, I think.”

“Me, I have one belief — that I’m going to be here in Calgary this season. It’s up to me in the end if I stay or go.”

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...890/story.html

I think that shows a good perspective. He'll get over this (I hope) and be better for it.

[saillias]

Colborne played C, that's another thing. The options were Blair Jones and Ben Street. Backlund was in the dog house too (see, not just Baertschi gets tough love) and Stajan is Stajan.

Originally Posted by New Era

I'm sure the season ticket holders must be tickled to hear that.

Exactly, this is NHL hockey going on right now. The uncontested best league in the world. The drafting and development part of my fandom sort of turns off in October, don't ****ing tell me the next 7 months don't matter. If you're a fan worrying about McDavid now, you're doing hockey wrong.

[Stay Golden]

I think Jooris will be closer to being called up than Sven. Jooris worked hard to make the Flames.
His output was far more noticeable than some of the players that will make the team mostly due to their contracts.

[Enoch Root]

I really don't get why people get so upset about waivers and it's impact on transactions...

It exists. It is a rule within the business of the league - get over it.

Sometimes transactions will be determined by waivers. It can and will have an impact on rosters.

However, it will NOT have a long-term impact on rosters - the most deserving players will find their way into the league sooner or later.

It really isn't worth getting upset over every time it comes into play.

[Enoch Root]

out of thanks, but thanks, Machiavelli

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Whatever the reason may be, though, it looks to be working out well, right? I'm going to trust Treliving to continue to do the right thing until there's something more definitive to prove him wrong.

The point I was trying to make was that Baertschi seems to be held to a different standard than the other players on the team. I believe his mistakes are unnecessarily amplified and he has received very little praise from management. It's all negativity. No funny, positive quotes from Hartley, just silence or confusion.

He was expected to improve his two-way game over the off-season. He did. Now fans are upset he didn't put up more points. That sounds pretty frustrating to me.

I think anybody else in the same situation would feel just as Baertschi does now. He'd taken another punch to the stomach and now he'll be expected to prove himself in Adirondack. I think that's a difficult position to be in, and I know fans will get on him again if he doesn't get off to a strong start.

I feel bad for him because he's an unbelievably sincere and level-headed person and I think he's earned the opportunity. I think the NHL is the best place for his development.

Part of the reason why I mentioned Colborne was because, as it turned out, the NHL was pretty good for his development, even though he didn't earn it (as some feel about Baertschi).

[mhsyyc]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

You can quote Burke and Treviling all you want and say no one was ever harmed by being sent down but there is no evidence to warrant that. A guy's confidence level takes a hit when he is cut. It's human nature. It's different for Jooris than it is for Baertschi. I hope he picks himself up and comes back soon but take the blinders off your eyes. These guys are human and the biggest factor holding young guys back is mental not physical. Telling guys they're not good enough, and they need to - beef up and play a 200 foot game for example - and then telling them they are still not good enough has the risk of hurting development. I don't think this is a revolutionary idea for an objective person. I get so tired of hockey people repeating the same old tired ideas without ever questioning their basis.

I get they're human and humans react in many different ways. The way I want a guy to react when he gets sent down is to be pissed, to take the bull by the horns and to go to the AHL and kick ass. I don't want to hear about being sad,I want to hear verbal truculence.

[flylock shox]

I think Sven is an introspective person, who is probably his own worst critic and really takes criticisms and perceived failures to heart.

I think he's also someone who has high expectations of himself, and felt he was meeting those when he had his successful 5 game intro to the team. At that point, he probably already felt he had made it.

When Burke expressed doubts about him, and when he found himself in the minors, he likely felt this was a personal failing on his part, and took a lot for him to set his jaw and really work on changing his game, particularly with his lowered confidence.

But he did that, probably at the expense of his offensive production which is what he likely prided himself on.

Now he probably feels like he's sacrificed a lot to play the game the team wanted him to play, and getting nowhere - likely because he's traded offence for defence.

What seems clear from all of this is that "tough love" is likely not the right approach for his psychology. He needs his confidence restored, and to feel valued again, however that may happen.

[FBI]

For those commenting about svens crappy preseason numbers, don't forget some of his beauty passes that teammates didn't capitalize on and should have.

I don't remember seto generating much at all.

[hummdeedoo]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'm sure the season ticket holders must be tickled to hear that.

Ok - Call it a rebuild.

The Flames will be a competitive team and watching the young guys develop will be fun.

I would pay to go see games now compared to what the Flames were trying to sell a couple years ago.

and Yes - this season matters.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by mhsyyc

I get they're human and humans react in many different ways. The way I want a guy to react when he gets sent down is to be pissed, to take the bull by the horns and to go to the AHL and kick ass. I don't want to hear about being sad,I want to hear verbal truculence.

This is likely just what Burke wants too. But I don't think that's who Sven is, and handling him that way is going to harm rather than help.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

Where can we find Treliving's remarks about the cuts? All I see is a tweet from a reporter.

To be fair that's all we have for Sven's comments too. It will be interesting to hear actual interviews

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Part of the reason why I mentioned Colborne was because, as it turned out, the NHL was pretty good for his development, even though he didn't earn it (as some feel about Baertschi).

Normally I grimace when there's Baertschi news and you post. But you have some great points - nothing more than this one. Colborne was kept up in large part because of his waiver status. That's just the way it is (you can't spend a 4th pick to lose a guy on waivers unless you give him more than an honest shot).

I firmly believe Treliving sees what needs to be done with moving some vets to have spots for young guys (Baertschi, Granlund, Ferland, Jooris, etc). He's going to give Setoguchi some time and will look strongly at Jones and Wideman. I really think Baertschi didn't have the best preseason, but he's improving and by mid-season, he'll be up.

If there is any agenda against Baertschi by coaching and management, I believe it's to temper his expectations and get his game rounded out. Feaster did no favors (by his own admission) to bring Baertschi up too early. But I think he's been written off. He just has to be consistent throughout the game, which from an admittedly amateur viewpoint, he hasn't quite yet.

As with any business, veterans and "those that have been there" get way more leeway over rookies or newbies. It's just the way it is. Setoguchi is going to have the chance to prove himself in the regular season based on his resume. That's what vets have "earned". If he fails, he will be cut/moved. Not fair to many that have posted their displeasure, but I don't think it's for long.

[Hockey_Ninja]

I'm not too worried about Sven, but i am disappointed he didn't make the roster. He'll get his chance sometime during this season to prove that management made a mistake.