[CP Story] Flames Youth Force Cultural Impasse for Flames

[ThatsRobbery]

One thing I may point out is when people say Sven looks like he lost some confidence on offense. While I agree he hasn't been as good on offense as he could be, he also had guys (Know of Monahan and Seto at least) missing high % scoring chances on gorgeous passes he made so he could be higher up on points. Still he doesn't have much chance of making it with Johnny Hockey playing extremely well and one spot unless they do something with Seto and Jones.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Hartley re-iterates his mantra so I hope it holds true.

I hope so too, but this quote from Hartley doesn't give me much confidence:

" There could be some spots being won; there could be some spots being lost in tomorrow night’s game. "

Usually, that's an incumbency euphemism for 'the old guy gets the place by default if the new guy makes one mistake.'

I think they legitimately keep one youngster up, and the rest go back to the farm as vets return from injury and/or are let develop into so-called game shape.

But I hope to be surprised.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by RyZ

I think they keep Gaudreau up and send everybody else down and play the vets on 1 way contracts out of the gate. I don't like it, but that's what I'm betting happens.

I agree and I hate it.

“Always earned, never given”

Once just once I would like to see some balls, Waive Jones and Setoguchi to the AHL because "they never earned it" and make them play their way back up. To me Jones is a $4m a year thief and Setoguchi just thinks he belongs and doesn't try.

You want a consistent effort? practice what you preach.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RyZ

I think they keep Gaudreau up and send everybody else down and play the vets on 1 way contracts out of the gate. I don't like it, but that's what I'm betting happens.

Coach and management is going to give the vets time to prove they are worthy of their spots with the team. Come mid season I expect there will be a few vets that are demoted or traded and the beginning of a youth movement with prospects being recalled to fill those spots.

The roster at seasons end will be dramaticly different from the one we start the season with.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by T@T

I agree and I hate it.


Once just once I would like to see some balls, Waive Jones and Setoguchi to the AHL because "they never earned it" and make them play their way back up. To me Jones is a $4m a year thief and Setoguchi just thinks he belongs and doesn't try.

You want a consistent effort? practice what you preach.

I disagree. It's just that Setoguchi and Jones aren't that good. I really don't think it's a character issue. Not everybody gets a medal of they try hard enough. Sometimes players lose their talent

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I disagree. It's just that Setoguchi and Jones aren't that good. I really don't think it's a character issue. Not everybody gets a medal of they try hard enough. Sometimes players lose their talent

I'm a little confused, would you like them waived or not? both have been good players in the past...is that forgotten? to me at their age I say no friken way, it's about desire and effort IMO.

As a fan I want the best character and talent, and neither seem to fit the bill over the young guys.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm a little confused, would you like them waived or not? both have been good players in the past...is that forgotten? to me at their age I say no friken way, it's about desire and effort IMO.

As a fan I want the best character and talent, and neither seem to fit the bill over the young guys.

Oh sure. I don't want them on my team any more than most of the posters do.

I'm more speaking to the general sentiment by many fans and media these that any time a team or player doesn't do well it's because they didn't try hard enough

[fanman]

Nice write-up, and interesting points.

I think we'll see the "meritocracy" play out but not necessarily for the opening roster. Maybe one of the vets will get pushed out (waived or to the AHL) but I think the others will get about 20 games or so to earn their spot. After that you might see a couple more vets pushed out again in favour of a few prospects.

The meritocracy plan will happen over the course of the season, not just before opening night. Similar to what we saw last year with O'brien getting sent down and guys like Galiardi getting a lot of press box time.

Anyway, personally I'm fine with this as I don't think the Flames will have a winning record this year. I think they continue to work hard and are in a lot of close games but don't have the horses yet to really compete in the west. As long as some young guys get a chance to play some NHL games and continue to develop, and the team doesn't get a complacent attitude where losing and half-assed effort are accepted then it sets up nicely for the future.

[Bingo]

This season is long, and injuries will happen, I agree 100%.

But I do think if you're going to lay out a slogan every chance you get you had better be careful to make sure you live by it.

If every vet makes the team, and only Gaudreau starts the season, then say something about it. Warn veterans that they didn't have a good camp and they are on alert. The culture in Calgary is huge right now, its bigger than any player. They have to protect it.

[Flames2007FIRE IT UP]

Guys like Setoguchi and Jones have 'earned' something by scoring 20+ goals in multiple NHL seasons and playing full time for multiple NHL season. I think they get the benefit of the doubt and a chance early in the season. They have earned some slack, maybe not much but some. I also think it looks terrible on the organization to sign a guy to a one way deal and never give him a chance in the NHL. If management feels he has earned a 1 way deal he has earned 15-20 NHL games. If he is terrible in the first 8-10 sit him for 2-3 give him another 8-10 still nothing waivers and the end most likely the end of his NHL career. Quite frankly if you can't make the roster of the 27th place team it is not looking good.

Totally agree with the poster saying is a prospect really taking a step back by playing 20 games in the AHL? Not the worst thing in the world to have the next 'core' of the Flames hanging around together on the buses in Addy for a few weeks or even months - will probably make them appreciate the NHL even more. Tighter group coming up as well. Not at all a bad thing.

I think Gaudreau has been awesome - should be on the team, but if he is not - it will not be the end of the world, although it may crash CP. Jooris I think a let down might happen after answering questions for 3 days about making the team. Go prove for 2-3 weeks you can play with the same intensity in the AHL. Than you are the first call. Nothing wrong with saying that. If he has a let down in the AHL, Sven or Grandlund may get the call, keep competition going all season in Addy.

I also hope none of the young guys are in the press box; they need to be playing - Jooris/Sven/Jonny sitting is the worst thing for their development - would much rather they play in the AHL vs 'making' the Flames as a 13/14 forward.

I hope our prospects pool has a mantra - I don't want to make the NHL, I want to contribute in the NHL for many years.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ yes. Jooris has been good but the coaches need to separate his achievements from his own merits versus being a beneficiary of his time playing with guys like Gaudreau (who slows the game down and makes his linemates better) and Bennett (sweet pass on that one goal, but will Benett stick), etc. Being in the right place for linemates who set you up doesn't necessarily translate to success playing with duds.

* of course, failing to deliver when put in a chance to succeed is much worse than delivering

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by ThatsRobbery

One thing I may point out is when people say Sven looks like he lost some confidence on offense. While I agree he hasn't been as good on offense as he could be, he also had guys (Know of Monahan and Seto at least) missing high % scoring chances on gorgeous passes he made so he could be higher up on points. Still he doesn't have much chance of making it with Johnny Hockey playing extremely well and one spot unless they do something with Seto and Jones.

It could be.

What I see from Sven is a player who is concentrating hard to be more responsible. I think that responsibility is showing, but it's not yet a natural instinct and he has to concentrate at it. Give it another 20-30 games and that responsibility will be more fluid, and he'll be able to start bringing his offensive strength to the forefront again.

[Enoch Root]

I voted that they will walk the walk. But it doesn't have to happen for opening day. This is where I think a lot of fans are getting bent out of shape inappropriately.

Nothing wrong with saying to a kid like Jooris "great camp, you've made the team! However, we currently have too many bodies and a few more decisions to make. So we want you to play in Addy for X games and then we'll bring you back as soon as those decisions have been made. While down there, we want you to work on XX. Congratulations and great job!"

It is also possible to say to a vet "you haven't been good enough so far. We understand that it's preseason so we're going to give you some games. But if things don't improve, changes will be made"

Some of you are far too hung up on a single point in time.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This season is long, and injuries will happen, I agree 100%.

But I do think if you're going to lay out a slogan every chance you get you had better be careful to make sure you live by it.

If every vet makes the team, and only Gaudreau starts the season, then say something about it. Warn veterans that they didn't have a good camp and they are on alert. The culture in Calgary is huge right now, its bigger than any player. They have to protect it.

I get what you are saying and for the most part I agree with the consensus here that it would be great to see a few veterans waived in favour of some of the outstanding prospects from camp.

Having said that, your statement is not altogether as simple as the false dichotomy that appears in then poll. Calgary4Life delivered a fantastic post to set the situation in a more realistic context, and I basically agree with everything that he said there. Fans are best served to reserve judgment of the franchise based on the shape of the opening night roster.

But I also think that there is something else very important to consider here. Management and coaches have been trotting out the mantra in the media, "always earned, never given," very much as part of a PR strategy. I believe the slogan is real. However, I also believe that it probably means something a little different inside the dressing room than it does to the general public when they hear the coaches and players use it, or when they see it in print. So yes, I agree with you that the team needs to take care to live by the slogan, but insofar as the mantra is used and understood by the team and the players.

I won't vote in the poll because I'm not fond of how the two choices are offered, but I will say that I expect the team to walk the walk, although I am not convinced that we will know exactly what that means based on who is on or not on the opening night roster.

[kyuss275]

Great article. I agree with everything. Unfortunately the reality of waiving a veteran and him getting picked up is slim, and trades are just as hard.

[FBI]

Looks like the 31% had it right.
One spot available for a rookie.
At least it's the right rookie.

[Locke]

And that answers that.

Called it!

[Rick M.]

The problem with 'nothing given, everything earned' is that it doesn't just apply to roster spots. It also applies to trust between players and coach/management. Trust must be earned and maintained. If you undermine this you create a potential disaster. Is Bob Hartley being hung out to dry by organizational rhetoric. It's not just hurt feelings of those sent down that concern me. It's the attitude of good players on the big club who see that help was available but turned down in favor of mediocrities who don't put out. The Flames want to be (and to be perceived as) a team that is 'hard to play against' and gives 100% effort, 100% of the time. I hope the organization gave a good, credible explanation to those involved and I hope a few iffy vets got the message 'put out or get out' loud and clear.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

The problem with 'nothing given, everything earned' is that it doesn't just apply to roster spots. It also applies to trust between players and coach/management. Trust must be earned and maintained. If you undermine this you create a potential disaster. Is Bob Hartley being hung out to dry by organizational rhetoric.

I don't know. Is he? This seems to presume that Hartley is somehow not completely in line with the "organisational rhetoric."

Originally Posted by Rick M.

It's not just hurt feelings of those sent down that concern me. It's the attitude of good players on the big club who see that help was available but turned down in favor of mediocrities who don't put out.

So, whose feelings have been hurt as a result of the opening night roster? (FYI, your feelings don't count.) What do you know about the "attitude of good players" that has suddenly soured because of the roster decisions made today?

*EDIT* So, we now know that Baertschi's feelings were hurt by today's news, but I would still argue that the team cannot set a precedent of making their roster decisions based on how it will affect the feelings of this or that player. I feel bad for Baertschi, but it is really on him at this point to work through it and prove his worth to the team.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't know. Is he? This seems to presume that Hartley is somehow not completely in line with the "organisational rhetoric."


So, whose feelings have been hurt as a result of the opening night roster? (FYI, your feelings don't count.) What do you know about the "attitude of good players" that has suddenly soured because of the roster decisions made today?

I'm sure Hartley is totally in agreement with the rhetoric. I'm not sure roster staffing is under his control. Hurt feelings are not the issue, but managerial integrity might be. Is the rhetoric sincere or just flannel?