[CP Story] Flames Youth Force Cultural Impasse for Flames

[Finger Cookin]

Nope, one spot available for a forward *at the start of the season, barring injury*, and that's it.

I'm skeptical all of Raymond, Backlund, and Jones are going to be good to go on opening night. All have missed a lot of camp and regular practice time. Even if they somehow manage to be, Gaudreau stays. Order of probability of the forwards staying due to injury (from highest to lowest) is then Jooris, Baertschi, then Bennett. Bennet is almost certainly going back to the OHL without any regular season NHL games, and Granlund will start the season in Addy once he's able to return from his concussion.

The probability of forwards being shuffled aside if all four of the healthy bubble young forwards manage to stick are Setoguchi, Jones, Bolling, Byron, McGrattan, and then Bouma.

[Locke]

Similar to what I said in another thread, this season is this team's 'rock bottom.'

And to that end, I think theres the idea of sheltering some of the prospects from that and showcasing some vets that are going to get dealt for whatever anyone will give us for them and then bringing the kids in.

Not all the vets, obviously, that would be full Oiler and, haha! As we all know, you never go full Oiler. Never. Its like Crystal Meth....not even once!

There are jobs for these prospects, they're just not jobs that start at the beginning of the season.

[N-E-B]

I highly doubt they cut or waive a vet, but I do think they will make some trades.

[Flame19,289]

Great article, Bingo... and you should add post #10 onto the end of the article as an addendum/afterword.

Nice writing and an excellent summary of the most exciting pre-season that I can recall in at least 10 years.

[Joborule]

I see only one of the potential youth making the team for opening night, but throughout the season, injuries and trades will occur that brings these players up to get plenty of game time. We'll likely be seeing plenty of them this season.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I think it's dicey to set the conversation up as either they guys you think made the team are on it opening day, or the flames are full O crap. Otherwise great read.

It's a moment in time after 2-3 weeks of scrimmages, with some players having been injured. If young guys don't play in game 1 it is not the end of the line. Check in again in 10, 20, 40 games. If setoguchi or jones aren't performing, guys like ferland and jooris will have their spots. Or someone else.

For now I'm pretty excited that gaudreau has been amazing, a few others are knocking at the door by anyone's definition.

[Gaskal]

CBA and 1-way vs 2-way contracts kinda get in the way of the mantra.

[FlameZilla]

The battles are really for 3 realistically available spots:

1 top 6 & PP forward (2 spots if Backlund isn't good to go)
Between Gaudreau, Baertschi, Granlund, Bennett, Jones (HA!!)

1bottom 6 & PK forward
Between Jooris, Byron, Ferland, Setoguchi

7th defenceman
Between Diaz & Wotherspoon

Gaudreau, Jooris & Diaz are my preferences. Let Bennett deputise for Backlund while/if he's injured.

Injuries will allow for a couple of extra faces to stick with the big club. When everyone is healthy I sincerely hope a couple of bodies are dealt. David Jones has a lot to prove, and he's on the back foot already with his injury record. No harm in giving him a spell of time in the AHL to find his groove again.

[Vulcan]

“Tomorrow is another big game,” Hartley said. “It’s the final game. It’s our ninth game. It’s been a long training camp. The battle is far from being over. There could be some spots being won; there could be some spots being lost in tomorrow night’s game. It’s a big game for us.
“The pressure comes from the last game. It doesn’t come from the coaching staff or the outside. It comes right from the inside. If you’re playing the last game, you have a chance to start the season here."

“We still have lots of bodies,” Hartley said. “Don’t think that whether you’re a veteran or a rookie…remember the slogan, ‘Always earned, never given’. That’s the culture that we’re building over here and it goes for everyone.”

Hartley re-iterates his mantra so I hope it holds true.

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?...id=DL|CGY|home

[Calgary4LIfe]

Let me start by saying that I would LOVE to see Ferland, Reinhart, Jooris, Baertschi, Bennett, Gaudreau, Wotherspoon, Knight, Granlund, Ortio, etc., etc., etc., playing in Flames silks this season.

With that being said, what is the very best interest of the organization? In my opinion, some sort of a balance.

When you look at last season, and IIRC, there were 17 different call-ups from the Heat. Can we expect this much this season? Well, a number of the vets do have some injury histories. The Flames also play in a tough conference, and probably the most physical division. There will be injuries (already is) and there will be lots of opportunity.

What is the 'fair' thing to do? Remember, these kids have been going at it since Penticton. They have their timing and game legs. Most of the vets are still getting theirs. Sure, Setoguchi has not impressed (outside from a few instances, nothing much about his game I can say I have liked to this point). However, the Flames signed him, and he agreed to sign on with the Flames for the opportunity to showcase himself at least. Does that mean just the preseason? Would that be fair? I am not sure if it is or it isn't, to be honest. I am not sure that it is fair to completely judge the vets against the youth just during the preseason.

My opinion is 'asset management' should be the priority.

So, is it in the Flames' best interests to start the kids right away? Will they experience better development in the NHL? I think that you can make a case for some of them that they are simply ready, others can probably use a chunk of games in the AHL still, but should be called up for a long look again in short order. However, on the flip-side - will any prospect experience anything detrimental to their development by being sent down to the NHL for 10-20 games to start the season?

I would prefer that Treliving do his best to properly manage the 'assets' on this team. If that means giving 20 games to Setoguchi to 'catch up' (get his timing back, his game legs, familiarity with other players and familiarity with Hartley's system) then so be it. If he is not performing, then he should be scratched and/or waived (like O'Brien, but O'Brien spent too long here last season).

Flames are not afraid to waive a vet. They did so with O'Brien. They will again if need be.

However, what if Setoguchi does well? As long as the Flames don't do anything crazy like re-sign him, then it can only be a positive thing. Maybe he pots in 20 before the deadline, and you can squeeze out a second from a contender in this very deep draft. So, from that perspective, is adding another Granlund to the organization worth keeping Granlund in the AHL for 20 games? I am looking at many of the prospects us fans are in love with, and most of them were outside the first round - Flames are drafting better. Something to consider.

I don't think 'earned not given' would necessarily be in error if they just give a longer look to vets. That is just proper asset management. I was pretty annoyed last year when the Flames traded for Colborne. Thought Horak was more 'deserving' and so on. Who here would rather have Horak than Colborne. Not quite the same thing, I know, as Colborne is young himself. However, going through a rebuild means you manage whatever assets you have as best as possible. Does that mean that the right choice is delaying one of the prospects from being in the NHL for 10 or 20 games, while you see what else you have?

I trust Hartley. Sven was not ready last year (I am not sure he is really ready this year either, but he is definitely much closer) and sent him down. He didn't like what O'Brien was bringing, so he sent him down as well. I say give Treliving 20 games to manage his team after signing them, and then give Hartley the reigns again and let him decide who is staying and who is going based on their performance.

I think that would be fair. Meets both the asset-management side of the business, and also meets the 'earned, not given' mantra. I think there is opportunity this year on the Flames. One spot open (Gaudreau's I would bet), plus injury call-ups, plus Hartley benching/demoting vets (Galiardi and O'Brien respectively).

I also don't know if we are just getting ahead of ourselves a bit here. Let's forget about Edmonton and what kind of circus they have been pulling. I generally notice this on successful rebuilding teams (for the most part - I don't there is really any cookie-cutter form per se).

Year one (Monahan Draft) - One or two rookies get a spot, rest develop in the NHL and get good looks in the NHL. Team looks to deal more vets for more youth.

Year two (Bennett draft) - Another one or two rookies make the squad. More prospects get longer looks throughout the season, and some end up sticking. Team unloads vets after signing them to help shoulder development, losses and physicality.

Year three (Next Draft) - Already have a more solid number of experienced young players on the team (core forming) and you have another crop of a few that make the team, and others that stick during the season.

That is how I look at the rebuild, though I also see that prospects are looking good enough now. What is the right answer? I don't know, but I have a feeling that halfway through this season I will be a very happy Flames' fan watching a good number of these kids playing due to trades, demotions and injuries. I would love for them to start on opening night, but I can personally be patient IF it is in the best interest of the Flames. The best interests of the Flames happens to coincide with the prospects anyways.

[HelloHockeyFans]

^ Agree with what you're saying.

The Flames should try to maximize Setoguchi and give him some time to find his game again. If he does, they can potentially flip him for something else down the line.

Feel bad for Baertschi - he's come into camp looking improved this year. He just doesn't look as good as Gaudreau so likely goes down while Gaudreau stays up.

[FBI]

Great news about backlund in that link!

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

The battles are really for 3 realistically available spots:

1 top 6 & PP forward (2 spots if Backlund isn't good to go)
Between Gaudreau, Baertschi, Granlund, Bennett, Jones (HA!!)

1bottom 6 & PK forward
Between Jooris, Byron, Ferland, Setoguchi

7th defenceman
Between Diaz & Wotherspoon

Gaudreau, Jooris & Diaz are my preferences. Let Bennett deputise for Backlund while/if he's injured.

Injuries will allow for a couple of extra faces to stick with the big club. When everyone is healthy I sincerely hope a couple of bodies are dealt. David Jones has a lot to prove, and he's on the back foot already with his injury record. No harm in giving him a spell of time in the AHL to find his groove again.

Ya, this seems quite possible. I have the same preferences as you do. At least at the beginning of the season. Once Backlund is back Bennett goes back to the OHL. The others can develop in Addy and come back up when some vets are playing poorly or more injuries creep in.

this is a good place to be, internal competition and hopefully management following through will lead to a great team in the future.

[JetsFlamesFan]

This whole article is based on the assumption that 8 preseason games is enough of a tryout to earn an NHL spot. It's preseason, I think a season of tearing up the AHL is how you prove you are ready to move up. Statistically anyway, 8 games plus a few days at camp is too small of a sample size to determine what a player is gonna be as a regular NHLer. Would it be nice if all the rookies could get a 10 game demo to start the regular season? Sure. But are you gonna dismantle your NHL lineup to accommodate that? What do you do if it doesn't work out and the kids can't play? That's called a tank job. That's what the Oilers do, not the Flames!

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

The battles are really for 3 realistically available spots:

1 top 6 & PP forward (2 spots if Backlund isn't good to go)
Between Gaudreau, Baertschi, Granlund, Bennett, Jones (HA!!)

1bottom 6 & PK forward
Between Jooris, Byron, Ferland, Setoguchi

7th defenceman
Between Diaz & Wotherspoon

Gaudreau, Jooris & Diaz are my preferences. Let Bennett deputise for Backlund while/if he's injured.

Injuries will allow for a couple of extra faces to stick with the big club. When everyone is healthy I sincerely hope a couple of bodies are dealt. David Jones has a lot to prove, and he's on the back foot already with his injury record. No harm in giving him a spell of time in the AHL to find his groove again.

Don't know why Jones can't be a bottom 6 guy. Besides Bouma he had the most hits per game out of the forwards.

[Itse]

I don't the poll options are mutually exclusive, because injuries.

Also, as I said in another thread, I think people are making way too much of the opening night roster.

Last season on opening night we had Bouma, Baertchi, Monahan, Berra and Street if you count him. Few nights later Colborne was brought in, a little later Baertchi was sent down. Byron, who was not on opening night roster, ended up playing 47 games, more than double that of Baertchi. Berra ended up getting traded. Late in the season Wotherspoon got a good look. Not to mention all the guys that got a few games here and there.

My point is, while spots are available at camp, at best that's an implication of how the season will eventually shake out.

To me this annual roster frenzy is Canadian fans going overboard with hockey deprivation.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I get what you are saying, but I believe Berra started on the Heat. I think Ramo and MacDonald were on the Flames, or am I remembering it wrong?

[Antithesis]

You have to have faith in Treliving/Hartley to do the right thing. They've given us absolutely no reason to doubt them. That being said, if Setogouchi makes the roster, you have to wonder.

[btimbit]

also hoping Seto hits waivers. Don't think he's been as bad as some people seem too, but he's certainly been outplayed by any of the rookies yet to be cut

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I get what you are saying, but I believe Berra started on the Heat. I think Ramo and MacDonald were on the Flames, or am I remembering it wrong?

You're right, it was Ramo and Joeymac at the start of the season. Other notables on that starting roster were Street, Breen, Smith, Jackman, SOB and Sven