Devin Setoguchi

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Setoguchi is here because we have zero right wing depth, young players need positions to be earned not given, and more likely than not, young players benefit from more not less seasoning the minors. Are we going to have this conversation all frickin season?

No kidding. Rosters are not set in stone after the first week. Seto is so low cost/low reward it is laughable that we are even talking about him. He is most likely in the opening line up. Big deal.

[Erick Estrada]

Pitchforks out before the guy has even played a single regular season game? Wow. Fan impatience has hit a new level as it appears preseason really matters now.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Pitchforks out before the guy has even played a single regular season game? Wow. Fan impatience has hit a new level as it appears preseason really matters now.

Given Setoguchi's declining regular season performance over the last few seasons and how he was just signed for near league minimum, I would have thought, at least for him, that his preseason play should matter.

Unless he thinks he already has the spot locked up, which it certainly looks like he does.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Given Setoguchi's declining regular season performance over the last few seasons and how he was just signed for near league minimum, I would have thought, at least for him, that his preseason play should matter.

Unless he thinks he already has the spot locked up, which it certainly looks like he does.

Believe it or not it does take some players a little time to get acclimated to new teammates and city. Sure it would be nice if he was a bit more noticeable in preseason but it's not like many of the veteran players have stood out. It's simply way too early to be jumping to conclusions on any players.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Believe it or not it does take some players a little time to get acclimated to new teammates and city. Sure it would be nice if he was a bit more noticeable in preseason but it's not like many of the veteran players have stood out. It's simply way too early to be jumping to conclusions on any players.

Minimal effort, disappointing execution, zero results.

I don't know how many excuses people have to make for this guy. He should have to be proving something before he's given a spot on the team.

He looks just like the Setoguchi of last season. He's barely holding on to his NHL career, and this is how he shows up to camp?

Not really inspiring for things to come.

[Tinordi]

Pretty sure management just signed Setoguchi to be the whipping boy for fans.

[ForeverFlameFan]

I am more worried about David Jones' honestly.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I am more worried about David Jones' honestly.

Yeah, no kidding. The guy has been a non-factor since we acquired him, and has, frankly, been passed by other younger players at this point. He has regressed for several years now.

Nevertheless, he'll still get a spot on this team because he's a 'veteran' and he makes $4M per.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Muta

Yeah, no kidding. The guy has been a non-factor since we acquired him, and has, frankly, been passed by other younger players at this point. He has regressed for several years now.

Nevertheless, he'll still get a spot on this team because he's a 'veteran' and he makes $4M per.

He was signed that deal for one good season with the Avs. Hasn't proven since, he can sit in the press box.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Minimal effort, disappointing execution, zero results.

I don't know how many excuses people have to make for this guy. He should have to be proving something before he's given a spot on the team.

He looks just like the Setoguchi of last season. He's barely holding on to his NHL career, and this is how he shows up to camp?

Not really inspiring for things to come.

The other side of that argument is that he should also be given ample time in the preseason to prove his worth. Setoguchi is the kind of player that will be cut on the last day of camp or shortly into the season, if at all. And that is because he already has proved "something": NHL experience will carry a player pretty far in any organisation.

It has always been this way and it will always be this way, and I don't understand why some fans demand things to be any different. The fact of the matter is that there is a BIG difference between incoming prospects and veterans with several seasons of NHL hockey already to their credit. This difference will ALWAYS HAVE SOME EFFECT on shaping the starting lineup out of camp, and it is usually in the form of a rookie having to very badly outplay a vet, and to basically outlast established NHLers in camp. We may yet see this take place with Setoguchi, but because he brings an NHL resumé into camp, it is NOT something that will happen at this very early stage.

That's just the way it is, and everyone will do themselves a favour if they get over it instead of whining about it every year in the early stages of training camp.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Muta

Yeah, no kidding. The guy has been a non-factor since we acquired him, and has, frankly, been passed by other younger players at this point. He has regressed for several years now.

Nevertheless, he'll still get a spot on this team because he's a 'veteran' and he makes $4M per.

IIRC, he did have a strong start in Calgary last year.

Not that I am disagreeing.

The book on Jones sort of mirrors Rene Bourque's. When playing a hard-nosed gritty game, he is an impact player and can get on the scoresheet with reasonable frequency. However, plays that way and gets injured, then goes back to being generally ineffective at offence, but still a good checker (though enormously over-priced as a checker). Bourque did have more offence, and I will not say they are the same player - just their playing styles and results are eerily similar in that regard.

I remember Avs fans posting that somewhere as how Jones always seems so great for stretches, and then gets hurt. Returns and is a totally different player. Rinse and repeat every season apparently. After his first season here, that does seem to be true.

[saillias]

Am I the only one who thought Jones was actually a pretty effective player for us last year? His main problem is being injury prone, whenever he got a few games in a row in, he started playing physical, scoring goals etc.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The other side of that argument is that he should also be given ample time in the preseason to prove his worth. Setoguchi is the kind of player that will be cut on the last day of camp or shortly into the season, if at all. And that is because he already has proved "something": NHL experience will carry a player pretty far in any organisation.

It has always been this way and it will always be this way, and I don't understand why some fans demand things to be any different. The fact of the matter is that there is a BIG difference between incoming prospects and veterans with several seasons of NHL hockey already to their credit. This difference will ALWAYS HAVE SOME EFFECT on shaping the starting lineup out of camp, and it is usually in the form of a rookie having to very badly outplay a vet, and to basically outlast established NHLers in camp. We may yet see this take place with Setoguchi, but because he brings an NHL resumé into camp, it is NOT something that will happen at this very early stage.

That's just the way it is, and everyone will do themselves a favour if they get over it instead of whining about it every year in the early stages of training camp.

I understand that. I'm just saying it shouldn't be that way, especially for a team that will be closer to 30th overall than challenging for a playoff spot.

Just like people get upset for the performance of younger players at the prospect tourney/camp, I see to reason why I can't be disappointed with Setoguchi's performance thus far.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by saillias

Am I the only one who thought Jones was actually a pretty effective player for us last year? His main problem is being injury prone, whenever he got a few games in a row in, he started playing physical, scoring goals etc.

No you're not alone. There wasn't a single forward who had tougher assignments last year than Jones. He started most of his shifts in the defensive zone and saw the toughest competition of any Flame. Saying that guys like Ferland who have shown nothing should waltz in and replace that kind of player is simply baseless.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I understand that. I'm just saying it shouldn't be that way, especially for a team that will be closer to 30th overall than challenging for a playoff spot.

Just like people get upset for the performance of younger players at the prospect tourney/camp, I see to reason why I can't be disappointed with Setoguchi's performance thus far.

A possible 30th place team has yet one more reason then not to bring youth in at the expense of veterans. Just because people want to watch these kids in the bigs, doesn't mean it's the right move. Playing in the NHL is NOT the best way to learn how to be a pro. Especially in a losing environment

[Lanny_McDonald]

Here's my problem with guys like Setoguchi. The Flames have been a team with a questionable culture for years. They turned the corner in that regard last season, playing their guts out and being fun to watch. Setoguchi has been a motivational challenge for his last two teams, not showing much consistency. He comes into camp and continues that, but is rewarded with an extended look, because he's a veteran. What message does that send to your young kids who are out their busting their ass and trying to impress? I want to see our team continue to be one where hard work is rewarded and lackluster or lazy play is punished. The optics of Setoguchi, or any other veteran for that matter, dogging it or playing at half speed because it is preseason, just isn't right, especially when you're trying to breed a work ethic in your young players. Beyond that, who cares. The Flames are going to be horrible this season and Setoguchi puts them that much closer to Connor McDavid, so there are plenty of positives of having him on the roster. I just wish our young players weren't there to witness it.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Good post Textcritic. The consistent need for some for everything to be explicitly black and white, exactly the same for all is strange. Nothing in life ever works that way, hockey world or outside. Players like Setoguchi have to make the team, but the evaluation process for someone with his background is going to be different then the process for a 18 year old kid who's never played an NHL game, and it should be.

What needs to be consistent or at least should be, is that they both need to prove themselves, but how they get to that point can be different. Setoguchi will be cut or sent down if the team has better options (unless the better options are served better by developing elsewhere, then he'll fill an NHL roster spot for the club and help us meet the cap floor), but it might not happen until after the regular season starts.

The NHL isn't minor hockey tryouts. The team in general doesn't have to be picked by Oct. 8th, the Flames can take longer to evaluate players and move people up and down. Half the time I think the fans get so caught up in this black and white, who's going to make it out of camp because they want to fill out their line up cards and hate dealing with the "uncertainty" that comes from having some players in roles that might bounce up and down from the minors to the biggs or in veterans cases the press box. Flames fans best get used to that for the next few years because it's what happens in a rebuilding team. Lots of spots in the line up card that are going to be a revolving door or players from vets to kids as the team tries to do what's best to develop our young prospects for the long term. Might make us uncomfortable as we long to be able to talk with certainty about who our 2nd and 3rd line right wingers are, but it's just not going to happen as this team rebuilds.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

No you're not alone. There wasn't a single forward who had tougher assignments last year than Jones. He started most of his shifts in the defensive zone and saw the toughest competition of any Flame. Saying that guys like Ferland who have shown nothing should waltz in and replace that kind of player is simply baseless.

Nah, not really. Jones hasn't done really much for this team. He's overpaid, injury prone and there's hungrier players out there that are simply showing better than him since early this year (Granlund, Reinhart, and now Ferland).

Jones is decent defensively, but for what he brings to this team, he should be one of the most expendable players on the roster

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I understand that. I'm just saying it shouldn't be that way, especially for a team that will be closer to 30th overall than challenging for a playoff spot.

Why should it not be that way? Like in virtually every other industry, past experience and past accomplishments mean something. Why should the NHL be any different?

There is so much that we don't see and are not privy to as onlooking fans in a NHL training camp. I'm not suggesting that experience counts for everything, but it really is foolish to expect that it would amount to nothing like some posters seem to imply.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Just like people get upset for the performance of younger players at the prospect tourney/camp, I see to reason why I can't be disappointed with Setoguchi's performance thus far.

Of course there is every reason to be disappointed. My gripe is with making the mistake of a direct comparison between a disappointing veteran in the early stages of training camp and a raw rookie. Its just not that relevant.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

...Setoguchi has been a motivational challenge for his last two teams, not showing much consistency. He comes into camp and continues that, but is rewarded with an extended look, because he's a veteran.

It's impossible to draw these conclusions accurately from your vantage point. Setoguchi's camp performance certainly would appear as you describe on some levels, but without the added benefit of being in the room, hearing what the coaches are saying to him, the conversations they are having amongst themselves about him, you really have no idea AT ALL about his level of "motivation."

Originally Posted by New Era

...The optics...

...are for fans.