YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[DoubleF]

The majority thing plays the idea of "everything is ok" doesn't fully fly as well as it used to, because there's also a shift occurring that should not be ignored. In all honesty, if CP or Flames legit spent the time to custom make a Flames Jersey/T-Shirt that wasn't pink as pepto, fit nicely, softer features without being non-sporty. You might even see women flocking to buy one (because previous offerings were not as desired) and even boyfriends may even flock to buy it for their significant other. The more ubiquitous and common something is, the more the majority will accept it.

But to avoid confusion, this post isn't about hockey jerseys for women.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

Wouldn't it also be on the women too for allowing this to happen? Like the ice girls making a stand on wearing something degrading. Or women refusing not to be an "ice girl"

And as for the pink jerseys, wouldnt the demand speak for itself? if women don't like the pink versions, allow the market to adjust so the lack of sales show pink jerseys aren't selling to their expectations and later roll out with just women sized jerseys

What if they ARE making a stand and you're the guy saying 52% think no change is necessary? If I told you to be 1 of 20 people fighting 50 others with 30 bystanders in the middle of a field to change something that really bothers you and you lose, did you just allow yourself to be subjected to something you did not like?


I think you're confusing supply vs demand. Demand is there, yes, but supply only offers a 2nd best or lower option.

[Barbecue]

Originally Posted by troutman

Tyranny of the Bare Majority

Indeed,
much like when the polls looked more like 45/55 where 55% was supportive of change and people, including the mods, made a point out of it.

Now that it's 52% in favor of not doing anything about it, everyone is so quick to dismiss it?

Why is this observation surfacing now?

[Barbecue]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

What if they ARE making a stand and you're the guy saying 52% think no change is necessary? If I told you to be 1 of 20 people fighting 50 others with 30 bystanders in the middle of a field to change something that really bothers you and you lose, did you just allow yourself to be subjected to something you did not like?


I think you're confusing supply vs demand. Demand is there, yes, but supply only offers a 2nd best or lower option.

They aren't making a stand because they're still out there as ice girls and the ones on the other teams are still wearing the degrading outfits. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads and threatening them to do so

[troutman]

“Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion — and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion… while truth again reverts to a new minority.”
― Søren Kierkegaard

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect”
― Mark Twain

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

Indeed,
much like when the polls looked more like 45/55 where 55% was supportive of change and people, including the mods, made a point out of it.

Now that it's 52% in favor of not doing anything about it, everyone is so quick to dismiss it?

Why is this observation surfacing now?

Do you even understand what the phrase "tyranny of the majority" means? This post certainly implies that you do not.

Also, IIRC, many people in this thread (mods included) have stated that the results of the poll shouldn't be used as a deciding factor when determining what, if anything, should be done about the thread. That there is a contingent of posters who are now trumpeting the fact that the "do nothing" option has a very slim majority whereas before there was a slim majority for "do something" doesn't change that.

[V]

I just love it that this is a contest that BBQ is so excited to be "winning".

[photon]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

Indeed,
much like when the polls looked more like 45/55 where 55% was supportive of change and people, including the mods, made a point out of it.

I certainly didn't, because I don't think the poll is relevant to the actual issue, it's just a gauge of the community's thoughts.

I don't recall the other mods making a point of it either (at least to make a point about if it should impact the eventual decision).

Because a poll is useful, but it's not always a guide to what is right. There would have been a time where a poll on CP asking if we should permit homophobic content or moderate it would have far more skewed away from moderating it compared to today. Doesn't change the rightness or wrongness of moderating it.

[Barbecue]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Do you even understand what the phrase "tyranny of the majority" means? This post certainly implies that you do not.

Also, IIRC, many people in this thread (mods included) have stated that the results of the poll shouldn't be used as a deciding factor when determining what, if anything, should be done about the thread. That there is a contingent of posters who are now trumpeting the fact that the "do nothing" option has a very slim majority whereas before there was a slim majority for "do something" doesn't change that.

yes, that was stated but they still also noted the majority of votes were in favor of change:

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

While "keep as is" holds a plurality of votes, it is notable that the majority opinion is currently that there is a problem with the thread as is. In that respect, I agree with Thor that the results are somewhat surprising.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

As noted - over half the community seems to think that the current state isn't ideal.

I was just noting that is no longer the case

[Barbecue]

Originally Posted by V

I just love it that this is a contest that BBQ is so excited to be "winning".

I'll be back when it's over 53%

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

yes, that was stated but they still also noted the majority of votes were in favor of change:





I was just noting that is no longer the case

The fact that nearly half the community feels that the status quo isn't good doesn't really change things for me. As stated - I don't think this is a majority rules case.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

I was just noting that is no longer the case

Jiri's comment was in the context of a discussion about it being surprising or not just to be clear.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

I was just noting that is no longer the case

Except to have a statistically significant cross section of the ~4000 active users (not including the 12,000 lurkers, a portion of whom I would guess actually voted) we would need 351 votes to have a 95% confidence level with a -/+5 confidence interval.

So far we only have 283 votes.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by troutman

“Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion — and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion… while truth again reverts to a new minority.”
― Søren Kierkegaard

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect”
― Mark Twain

Wow. What a load of absolute ####. There are a lot of things where the majority opinion is the correct opinion. Sometimes a lot of people agree on something because it's right. Not applying it to this specifically, but those quotes are ####ing stupid.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by troutman

“Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion — and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion… while truth again reverts to a new minority.”
― Søren Kierkegaard

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect”
― Mark Twain

That implies the majority is always incorrect which is simply incorrect.

[photon]

Haha I think a poll about troutmans quotes would be highly informative

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That implies the majority is always incorrect which is simply incorrect.

I don't think either of those quotes says that.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by nik-

Wow. What a load of absolute ####. There are a lot of things where the majority opinion is the correct opinion. Sometimes a lot of people agree on something because it's right. Not applying it to this specifically, but those quotes are ####ing stupid.

Neither quote suggests anything different. The quotes cannot be stupid, they're quotes, and if you're inferring the men who said them are stupid, you're mistaken.

The first quote concerns itself with the idea that the minority carries with it truth (not that the majority doesn't, nor that the truth is worth value), and that it takes real thought and a tangible opinion to join the minority, while the status quo requires neither of those things (but does not exclude them).

Both quotes suggest that being part of the majority does not require critical thought, but certainly shouldn't absolve someone from refusing to engage in it.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Neither quote suggests anything different. The quotes cannot be stupid, they're quotes, and if you're inferring the men who said them are stupid, you're mistaken.

Would you cut this out? Stop being condescending and argue the point instead of trying to look like you're smarter than everyone.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't think either of those quotes says that.

The first one definitely does.

"truth always rests with the minority"

No, it doesn't.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Would you cut this out? Stop being condescending and argue the point instead of trying to look like you're smarter than everyone.

How was that condescending? It was a completely accurate explanation of the quotes, and the two men in question had two brilliant minds.