YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Seems like this is turning out that those who scream the loudest get attention. Vocal minority? Squeaky wheel gets the grease?

More like completely ignore the arguments... again, and then pull out a bald faced self serving fallacy that those against the thread are only "squeaky wheels"

We have definitely reached the bottom of the barrel, congratulations.

[OutOfTheCube]

I asked my wife if a bikini/hot women photo thread was sexist and/or offensive. She said no, and that it's silly that there's a giant discussion about it.

Now, she doesn't post here, but assuming every woman ever would be offended by it is also a bit short-sighted too.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

I asked my wife if a bikini/hot women photo thread was sexist and/or offensive. She said no, and that it's silly that there's a giant discussion about it.

So your wife is now the ultimate arbiter on what is sexist and/or offensive? The opinions of other women, who have explicitly stated exactly why they have problems with that thread, mean nothing because your wife disagrees?

If photon posts that his wife thinks the thread is sexist and/or offensive, does that cancel out the opinion of your wife?

Also: under the O, second square. Bingo!

Now, she doesn't post here, but assuming every woman ever would be offended by it is also a bit short-sighted too.

Kindly point me to a post where anyone in favour of closing the thread has made that assumption.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Point noted, but I respectfully disagree.

I think I carelessly used the line "the women of CP find it harmful" once without a proper qualifier like "some" or "many". That is of course regarding how it is right now, which includes the comments that many of the female posters have spoken out about (all but two you said?). That seems like a majority, and because of this, I don't think I've generalised the views of all women of CP. If any of them think otherwise, they can of course let me know and I'll make sure I avoid it in the future.

I also disagree with your assertion over the fate of that thread having no impact. It makes some women uncomfortable and I believe Eastern Girl said she believes the posts and the atmosphere sometimes find their way into other threads. Not to mention WhiteTiger (a frequent poster in that thread) saying that the status quo would continue (which includes judgey and rude comments that do get squashed sometimes, but still pop up and occasionally go unchallenged), and that right there to me is a couple of changes that could be made immediately by getting rid of the thread.

It certainly would make a difference. That's why I'm curious about the value of the thread. If there is value to people in deleting it, what is the value of the thread to those that want to keep it?

Instead I get "WONT YOU THINK OF THE PIZZA THREAD?" lol

All but two I believe said keep and moderate of those who disclosed their vote. You seem to be ignoring the option of better moderation and self moderation.

If you get rid of of ylyl I think you see those types of picture posts creep more into the other threads. Containing it to one location reduces the moderation effort required. It also gives the opportunity to target the offensive comments and help to change the culture. I guess I disagree with EGs assertion that the thread causes it to creep out. I'd argue the opposite.

Also given it is the most viewed thread it obviously has some value to CP's audience. So getting rid of it could alienate a large portion of CP who may feel they are being persecuted for just enjoying looking at pictures. Out of 2.5 million views you have a few hundred offending posts.

Now you might argue that who cares we are just alienating misogynists, but I would disagree with that. Most people viewing the thread are not.

So CP has an opportunity here to try better moderation first and then re evaluate by going to get rid of it first you don't have the opportunity to fix the problem. This thread has already changed the tone of the other threads posts.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

I asked my wife if a bikini/hot women photo thread was sexist and/or offensive. She said no, and that it's silly that there's a giant discussion about it.

Now, she doesn't post here, but assuming every woman ever would be offended by it is also a bit short-sighted too.

We should have a copy/paste every time this is brought up.

"Hello Sir/Madam,

We appreciate your attempt to contribute to the YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread). Unfortunately, it appears that you are bringing up a point that is outside the scope and parameter of this discussion. Namely, most posters are in fact not taking issue with the women themselves, but rather the commentary and subsequent attitudes that pervade both the thread and the forum itself as a result of the thread not being moderated or enough and/or existing.

We appreciate your thoughtful input into the thread, and hope that in the future we can all be discussing the same thing.

Cordially yours,

The last 24 pages of this thread."

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

I asked my wife if a bikini/hot women photo thread was sexist and/or offensive. She said no, and that it's silly that there's a giant discussion about it.

Now, she doesn't post here, but assuming every woman ever would be offended by it is also a bit short-sighted too.

I don't think anyone is saying that pictures of attractive women, whether clothed in bikinis or not, are offensive. The issues at hand include some of the commentary in that thread and elsewhere on the site, as noted by a number of our female community members; and photos that marginalize or dehumanize women, examples being those featuring only specific body parts.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by GGG

All but two I believe said keep and moderate of those who disclosed their vote. You seem to be ignoring the option of better moderation and self moderation.

If you get rid of of ylyl I think you see those types of picture posts creep more into the other threads. Containing it to one location reduces the moderation effort required. It also gives the opportunity to target the offensive comments and help to change the culture. I guess I disagree with EGs assertion that the thread causes it to creep out. I'd argue the opposite.

Also given it is the most viewed thread it obviously has some value to CP's audience. So getting rid of it could alienate a large portion of CP who may feel they are being persecuted for just enjoying looking at pictures. Out of 2.5 million views you have a few hundred offending posts.

Now you might argue that who cares we are just alienating misogynists, but I would disagree with that. Most people viewing the thread are not.

So CP has an opportunity here to try better moderation first and then re evaluate by going to get rid of it first you don't have the opportunity to fix the problem. This thread has already changed the tone of the other threads posts.

I'm not sure why you'd suggest that I'm ignoring the views of those women who think it should stay but needs change. As I've said (repeatedly), it's harmful in it's current existence and therefore needs change. Where you might be confused is that I've been asking lately what the benefit of having it at all is. I still haven't gotten an answer.

I just think it's a little disingenuous to say I've ignored the value of "keep it but ..." when I'm the one who suggested option 4 (keep it but make it more inclusive, which would include more moderation) and voted for that option. Am I ignoring my own vote?

Again, I'm just looking for some response regarding what value it has that makes it worth keeping despite obviously causing issues. No matter how you cut it, 23% of people think it's bad enough that it shouldn't exist at all, so I'm just wondering what value the thread actually has that makes it worth fighting for.

The 2.5million views thing is a bit of a red herring. It's less average views per year than the Funny/Cool thread, and still has a low post count for the length of time it's been around. Using that number serves only to inflate the value of the thread. I've clicked multiple times into threads I don't care much about to see if the thread is going somewhere interesting, does that mean I care about every thread I go into? Absolutely not. I think you have to look at the post count to see who that thread has value to... and it's mostly WhiteTiger (20% of all posts where most big threads see a "post leader" at about 10% tops).

I do agree though, this thread has already improved the other thread. I've never taken a hard line against the existence of the thread, but I HAVE been relentless in a quest for a simple explanation of why it's worth keeping even in the face of controversy and the knowledge that other's find it harmful. I would think one person would've been able to answer that, but I haven't seen it yet. Even if we take your 2.5million views as gospel concerning the value of the thread. Can one of 2.5 million people not simply state what is so important about that thread that it's worth the higher moderation, continued sexism, and the fact that people find it upsetting?

If it's worth all that, surely there is one simple reason.

[OutOfTheCube]

Goodness you guys are passionate about this. I have only seen one woman post in this thread in the last 15 pages and she was exaggerating the problem. And when I bring up an actual real life woman's opinion (and yes, I told her that guys sometimes provide running commentary of how hot looking the pictures are), it's completely dismissed.

And doesn't one of our prominent female posters have an avatar of just some guy's bulging underpants? It goes both ways.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Goodness you guys are passionate about this. I have only seen one woman post in this thread in the last 15 pages and she was exaggerating the problem. And when I bring up an actual real life woman's opinion (and yes, I told her that guys sometimes provide running commentary of how hot looking the pictures are), it's completely dismissed.

And doesn't one of our prominent female posters have an avatar of just some guy's bulging underpants? It goes both ways.

You heard it here first:
The women on here aren't real life women.

Sorry EasternGirl, your opinion is no longer needed, we've got a REAL LIFE woman on our hands!

Of course I'm being facetious. Just read the thread. Seriously. The reason your post is dismissed is because everything in it has been covered ad nauseam. Not all women thinking it's sexist, the bikini pictures not being sexist, Peanut having a package as her avatar, all true and all covered.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You heard it here first:
The women on here aren't real life women.

Sorry EasternGirl, your opinion is no longer needed, we've got a REAL LIFE woman on our hands!

Of course I'm being facetious. Just read the thread. Seriously. The reason your post is dismissed is because everything in it has been covered ad nauseam. Not all women thinking it's sexist, the bikini pictures not being sexist, Peanut having a package as her avatar, all true and all covered.

Haha, I meant it more as a real woman instead of the men who have been arguing for the last 100 posts.

But on that note, I've been around online far too long to take anyone's word for it that they're actually a woman

Ultimately, a poll was made and the poll said keep it as is, so isn't that what should be done? If we're being democratic here.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Ultimately, a poll was made and the poll said keep it as is, so isn't that what should be done? If we're being democratic here.

As of this writing, a plurality of posters on an overwhelmingly male-dominated site voted to keep it as it is. A majority voted to either change or remove it.

But really, the results of this poll should't be taken to mean much at all. Google the phrase "tyranny of the majority" if you don't know why.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Goodness you guys are passionate about this. I have only seen one woman post in this thread in the last 15 pages and she was exaggerating the problem. And when I bring up an actual real life woman's opinion (and yes, I told her that guys sometimes provide running commentary of how hot looking the pictures are), it's completely dismissed.

And doesn't one of our prominent female posters have an avatar of just some guy's bulging underpants? It goes both ways.

Does your wife read or post on this forum? If she doesn't, with all due respect, her opinion isn't relevant. First off, if she hasn't seen the thread in question so she probably doesn't know its true nature. Did you mention the negative comments that are the actual source of offence? She's getting her information through the filter of someone who doesn't have a problem with this thread.

Second, we're discussing what's right for this community, and if she's not part of it, her opinion doesn't matter.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Ultimately, a poll was made and the poll said keep it as is, so isn't that what should be done? If we're being democratic here.

No, this isn't a democracy. The administrators and moderators of the board decide what can, and can't be, posted. They're just looking for our input to see what is the proper course of action.

[DownInFlames]

On the topic of the number of views the YLYL thread gets, I would bet the majority are from lurkers. If you look at the active users viewing the thread it's mostly guests, where most threads are primarily members. So the number of views doesn't make it a quality thread because the people viewing it aren't contributing as much.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

I'm not sure why you'd suggest that I'm ignoring the views of those women who think it should stay but needs change. As I've said (repeatedly), it's harmful in it's current existence and therefore needs change. Where you might be confused is that I've been asking lately what the benefit of having it at all is. I still haven't gotten an answer.

I just think it's a little disingenuous to say I've ignored the value of "keep it but ..." when I'm the one who suggested option 4 (keep it but make it more inclusive, which would include more moderation) and voted for that option. Am I ignoring my own vote?

Again, I'm just looking for some response regarding what value it has that makes it worth keeping despite obviously causing issues. No matter how you cut it, 23% of people think it's bad enough that it shouldn't exist at all, so I'm just wondering what value the thread actually has that makes it worth fighting for.

The 2.5million views thing is a bit of a red herring. It's less average views per year than the Funny/Cool thread, and still has a low post count for the length of time it's been around. Using that number serves only to inflate the value of the thread. I've clicked multiple times into threads I don't care much about to see if the thread is going somewhere interesting, does that mean I care about every thread I go into? Absolutely not. I think you have to look at the post count to see who that thread has value to... and it's mostly WhiteTiger (20% of all posts where most big threads see a "post leader" at about 10% tops).

I do agree though, this thread has already improved the other thread. I've never taken a hard line against the existence of the thread, but I HAVE been relentless in a quest for a simple explanation of why it's worth keeping even in the face of controversy and the knowledge that other's find it harmful. I would think one person would've been able to answer that, but I haven't seen it yet. Even if we take your 2.5million views as gospel concerning the value of the thread. Can one of 2.5 million people not simply state what is so important about that thread that it's worth the higher moderation, continued sexism, and the fact that people find it upsetting?

If it's worth all that, surely there is one simple reason.

Fair enough, I mainly was trying to point out that there was a shift in the discussion from how do you fix it to why have it at all.

As for value vs cost, higher moderation is worth it as it is a popular thread, I think most posters agreed that the thread wasn't inherently sexist it was the commentary and pictures of just parts that were the issue. If you clean up that aspect you eliminate that problem. I disagree with the assertion that ylyl increases general sexism on the site. And a minority of women find a fixed version of the thread offensive. So with that the cost of keeping it is low mainly increased moderation.

The cost of getting rid of it is that you increase the amount of things you are not allowed to talk about. Getting rid of the thread is essentially saying commentary or pictures about how attractive people are is not permitted. Threads like the Henrik Lundquist commercial, Hot Olympians, and ESPN body issue become either not permitted or immediately derailed. Hilarious avatars like peanuts disappear. Now Hot Olympians needs to be fixed to be one thread of both genders but that is pretty easy. By getting rid of it you are also are essentially calling everyone who views the thread a sexist pig. The open nature of this site is one of its stongest points.

I rarely go into that thread, I have never posted in it but I think there is a place for it amoung all the threads here. Others have argued that having this type of safe content (clothing on) means they don't have to go find it amoung the rest of the internet.

The one thing I have learned in this thread is to be more careful with the type of language I use when posting in general and that general levels of sexism are a concern.

[Itse]

I'm too exhausted by other things to discuss this topic much further right now, but I'd just like to mention that I'm not against the YLYL thread because I'm a woman (I'm not) or because I'm trying to protect anybody on this board in particular. Or because I don't like girlie pics. (I kind of do. Not really those kind, but that's quite beside the point.)

I, personally, as a heterosexual male don't like having that thread around. I think the thread is a sad representation of human sexuality, and while this sad representation is extremely common, there is IMO no need for CP to take part in propping up this particular sad phenomenon.

It's basically guys drooling at computer generated images thinking they're real women, spiced with the occasional paparazzi picture (extremely questionable stuff morally) and amateur pictures that are very probably making the rounds in the internet without the consent of the women in those pictures.

And as people have pointed out, it's not just some random thread. It's by far the most popular thread on the site. Based on the numbers it seems likely there are quite a few people for whom this site is basically hockey and girlie pics, and I'm not sure about the hockey.

And again as people have confessed, it encourages and enables people to oogle at girlie pics in situations they otherwise would not.

(Plus there lots of other stuff I've said which is already elsewhere in the thread and I can't be bothered to repeat.)

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

More like completely ignore the arguments... again, and then pull out a bald faced self serving fallacy that those against the thread are only "squeaky wheels"

We have definitely reached the bottom of the barrel, congratulations.

I'm all for getting rid of the YLYL thread if it means you will be less of a condescending prick, but alas, you talk down to pretty much every poster you disagree with, no matter the topic.

[taco.vidal]

LOL.

Thats sounds like an anti-male rant coming from a male. Guys drooling?

Men like women and can look at images of attractive women without having to masturbate or even drooling.

It encourages and enables people to oogle (sic) girlie pics they otherwise wouldn't? LOL again.

Originally Posted by Itse

It's basically guys drooling at computer generated images thinking they're real women, spiced with the occasional paparazzi picture (extremely questionable stuff morally) and amateur pictures that are very probably making the rounds in the internet without the consent of the women in those pictures.
...
And again as people have confessed, it encourages and enables people to oogle at girlie pics in situations they otherwise would not.

[Itse]

It'd be nice for the mods to get their decision out.

This thread has pretty much already sunk onto a level where discussion is impossible. Too many people coming here just to point fingers and laugh at people they don't understand without trying to actually read what anyone is saying or without any interest in what has already been discussed.

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

LOL. Thats sounds like an anti-male rant coming from a male.

You do know that "men" and "women" are not actually sides fighting each other, right?

[taco.vidal]

Yes.

You stated that men can't look at a woman and appreciate the human form without "drooling". Im not sure that anyone would disagree with that being a derogatory comment towards men.

Originally Posted by Itse

It'd be nice for the mods to get their decision out.






You do know that "men" and "women" are not actually sides fighting each other, right?