YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Labelled the points just so I can address them individually:

1. I think you know why a certain amount of hostility exists. If you constantly excuse the objectification of women as "science" then you're going to get a negative reaction.

So do we not have the discussion because its not easy? How do we be better people, better sexual beings if we can't talk about the science as best we understand it. It reminds me of the Masters of sex TV series about the man who spearheaded the study into sex for men and women, he was ostracized and ridiculed for even daring to look into it, but the result was a groundbreaking body of evidence that helped countless millions enjoy a better sex life, and for many at the time (the 50s) even learning how to achieve an orgasm, as women back then had very little enjoyment from sex due to the old male based views on sex.

2. There is nothing healthy and fun about "5/10, would not bang" or "look at his wife, gross!". Who is that fun for? Who is it healthy for? As said above, we are a highly evolved species capable of a great many thing, so to say that men objectify women because of evolution not only excuses it, but does so in a fairly silly way. Considering the amount of men who are able to separate their biological reactions from their outwardly reactions, I'd say it's a lame excuse.

I agree, that we should always choose to be better, and I do in my own life. Ignoring the evidence because its uncomfortable is silly in my opinion, isn't our ultimate goal to learn and do better with that information to help us be better human beings? Again I am not excusing crass behavior because of evolutionary biology, far from it, man should be aware of their desires and understand their own sexuality better, and in no way does this ever suggest that it gives them justification on being jerks or making women feel uncomfortable.

3. This whole point is dangerously condescending. This thread isn't about what you are/are not allowed to be aroused by, nor is anyone in this thread uncomfortable talking about sex. Suggesting FireFly is not calm, or rational enough to have a discussion about sexuality is probably incredibly insulting. (Granted, you may not have meant it, but be careful).

I understand that, I do, I thought throughout I was quite thoughtful and it just was frustrating to see her anger. I'm a really easy going guy, and love to discuss tough issues, its naive of me to not expect some resistance, I just wish we could talk about difficult and uncomfortable things without getting too heated about it. I also don't think its fair to call our understanding of human sexuality condescending, if the data supports it no matter how uncomfortable it is, we should accept it and learn from it. Nowhere does this suggest we just act like animals and never consider the feelings and not step into the shoes of others, empathy is always a must in life, never more so than in something like human sexuality.

4. Who has said that in this thread? Where is the discussion about how men who look at those pictures shouldn't or are misogynists for doing so? It hasn't been said once as far as I can tell, so who are you disagreeing with? If anything, most of the women have specifically said there is nothing wrong with the pictures or those who enjoy looking at beautiful people.

I thought Firefly was suggesting it, if she was not I apologize for suggesting she did, I did ask her to clarify. Otherwise this whole discussion has been quite interesting, CP usually steps above most other places where a discussion like this would have long ago moved to the lowest common denominator.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

2. There is nothing healthy and fun about "5/10, would not bang" or "look at his wife, gross!". Who is that fun for? Who is it healthy for? As said above, we are a highly evolved species capable of a great many thing, so to say that men objectify women because of evolution not only excuses it, but does so in a fairly silly way. Considering the amount of men who are able to separate their biological reactions from their outwardly reactions, I'd say it's a lame excuse.

There's been some pretty ####ty things happen here, but some of the comments on one of the forum member's wife pic was probably the worst I've felt on this forum. Especially since the member is a generally swell chap

Not that I'm innocent of objectifying comments ... I'm pretty much an animal

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Thor

Two, is sexuality is so often ridiculed, shamed, and in this case an emotional issue that I like to stick to what we know, the science, our best understanding and try to make a rational discussion of something so important, healthy and fun. By suggesting this, nowhere do I condone Misogyny. Men objectify women, the science suggests there is a lot of biological evolution to play here, and because its uncomfortable you shout down me for wanting to discuss it?

I kind of see what you're getting at, but I do think the discussion you're trying to have is hard to have side by side with this one. They're ultimately pretty different discussions.

Sure sexuality as a discussion can be uncomfortable, society loves to demonize, shame and try to tell people what they should or should not be aroused by. Its also quite complex, touches on various scientific fields and its a great topic of calm, rational and thoughtful discussion.

I agree to both points.

I have said, that I think there is nothing wrong with men looking at these photo's, because its natural for us (and women).

This is where we differ.

First of all, "it's natural" is a terrible, terrible argument that has no basis in actual science, or philosophy.

Second, from a purely moral standpoint there is nothing that makes "natural" behavior somehow morally innocent or better (or worse) than some other kind of behavior. Even if we were to accept some definition of "natural" as valid, it's at best a trivial observation that does not bring any real value to a discussion.

Third, from a historical POV a lot of human development is finding new ways to serve our instincts. I don't see any need to protect this specific form, as if we there wasn't enough ways for men in the west to get their sexual kicks in the world.

What I would disagree with is the suggestion that is made often that men who look at these pictures should not, or are misogynistic for doing so.

I think a major issue here is the question of what exactly does "these pictures" mean?

1) Does it matter that you're looking at scantily clad girls in general?
2) Does it matter what exactly is in the picture? (Name, face, pose, clothes...)
3) Does it matter that you're looking at heavily photomanipulated girls?
4) Does it matter that you're looking at anonymous amateur pics for titillation, of which you have no idea of knowing whether or not the girl agreed to them being passed around the internet?
5) Does it matter that you're looking at paparazzi pictures?
Etc etc.

Everyone of those is a discussion on it's own.

Personally I would say that 4) and 5) is in fact bad behavior and at the very least borderline misogynist.

Of course "what exactly is misogynism" would be another discussion needed here. Does it make you more or less misogynistic if you know what you're doing for example?

Thing is, I don't think we can solve all or any of those questions within the scopes of a discussion on what, if anything, should be done to the YLYL thread.

[Kybosh]

I've looked at the YLYL thread (think I posted a couple comments), but find myself increasingly weirded out by it for a few reasons. 1) For the most part, the pictures do not represent the reality of the female form at all. I'm also constantly shocked by the number of guys who flock to the completely unrealistic "porn" look. Maybe I'm not the majority, but if I'm way more into actual women in actual settings wearing environment appropriate attire. 2) As mentioned, some of the comments in the thread are just bizarre. I've never been one of those guys who comments on the "hotness" of some random woman, so maybe I just don't get it.

I think the trick is to find that balance of loving, yet respecting women. I'm not sure partaking in the equivalent of looking at the Sears catalogue with your buddies fits into that ideal.

P.S. What's up with guys posting tons of bikini or underwear pics and then making one NSFW? Uh, that entire thread is NSFW.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

P.S. What's up with guys posting tons of bikini or underwear pics and then making one NSFW? Uh, that entire thread is NSFW.

Sometimes it's just the size of the image, other times I'm not sure.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I guess the one reason I would question the existence of the thread is that the internet has no shortage of places where you can look at and objectify women as much as you want. Is it really necessary to have that type of thread on a forum that strives to be inclusive to people of all walks of life?

And to be honest, this is something I thought of posting as well. It isn't really a thread that is needed here, and if it ruffling feathers, then yeah, get rid of it. This is primarily a hockey site, and the OT forum, is secondary.

However, it is not uncommon for male dominated sites online, be it cars or sports, to have such threads. It doesn't make CP look like out of the norm.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Thor

So do we not have the discussion because its not easy? How do we be better people, better sexual beings if we can't talk about the science as best we understand it.

I agree, that we should always choose to be better, and I do in my own life. Ignoring the evidence because its uncomfortable is silly in my opinion, isn't our ultimate goal to learn and do better with that information to help us be better human beings? Again I am not excusing crass behavior because of evolutionary biology, far from it, man should be aware of their desires and understand their own sexuality better, and in no way does this ever suggest that it gives them justification on being jerks or making women feel uncomfortable.

Man, I really do get it, and I don't want you to feel like it's wrong to have that conversation, but I think it can best be countered with:

There is a time and a place, and this is neither

Should men seek to understand their own sexuality better? Of course. The science, why men like what they like, what role biology plays in taste... but in a thread about how women feel about being objectified and treated like objects? Yeah, PROBABLY not the best place for it.

If you want to have a conversation on the biology and evolution of men and how it relates to how men treat women, do it. However, if you don't want that to be seen as excusing the poorest examples of how to properly treat a woman (hint: human being) then it's likely best left for another thread, instead of a point made parallel to a discussion about how women feel.

As has been said repeatedly. The object of your desire or why you biologically desire hips or a butt or something about a face isn't the conversation. Women desire physical attributes just as much as men. The conversation is about things like "post pics!" anytime a girl is even mentioned, or "she needs to eat something" if a girl isn't specifically attractive enough, or even "ugh, she's not wearing makeup!" when a picture of a completely normal woman is presented.

Saying that sort of stuff has very little to do with biology and very much to do with how much of a dick you are, so let's save the biology conversation for another day.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Thor

I really don't understand your hostility here. I am fascinated by the science of human sexuality, have been for a long time. From my first post I clearly stated there's two discussions for me, one is if this thread bothers posters and especially to women here we should remove it.

Two, is sexuality is so often ridiculed, shamed, and in this case an emotional issue that I like to stick to what we know, the science, our best understanding and try to make a rational discussion of something so important, healthy and fun. By suggesting this, nowhere do I condone Misogyny. Men objectify women, the science suggests there is a lot of biological evolution to play here, and because its uncomfortable you shout down me for wanting to discuss it?

Sure sexuality as a discussion can be uncomfortable, society loves to demonize, shame and try to tell people what they should or should not be aroused by. Its also quite complex, touches on various scientific fields and its a great topic of calm, rational and thoughtful discussion. I'm disappointed at your reaction to my statements, feel they are unwarranted and insulting for no good reason.



Obviously both men and women objectify each other, its a baser instinct. Does this thread promote it, it certainly seems so by the reactions by many here. The discussion about "does this thread belong in CP"; I agreed it probably doesn't.

I have said, that I think there is nothing wrong with men looking at these photo's, because its natural for us (and women). What I would disagree with is the suggestion that is made often that men who look at these pictures should not, or are misogynistic for doing so.

You've tried to turn this topic into a discussion about human sexuality. Misogyny has not a heck of a lot to do with human sexuality and what's natural and what isn't. Yes, it's natural for men and women to look at men and women and think (TO THEMSELVES) would/would not bang. Would you say that in regular conversation other than with your buddies? Would you walk up to a woman and say "10/10, would bang, my place or yours?" How is it okay to say it on a message board with a bunch of strangers? And what does that have to do with human sexuality at all?

Everything that constitutes human sexuality is not okay. Rape is natural too, does that make it okay? Interspecies sex is natural too, is that okay? Pedophilia is also natural but I'm sure you'd hear a resounding no, that's not okay. We are supposed to be above our baser instincts as a species.

There is nothing wrong with men looking at photos of women. You're right, it's natural. We look at others all the time and judge them in our own heads. Is a hockey message board that is trying to be inclusive the place to do that? The fact that we're having this discussion at all should be a clear indication of the answer to that question. It reminds me of my boss saying that if you're looking in your mirror while you're getting ready for work and you're wondering if your outfit is workplace appropriate, it probably isn't.

If the thread contained pictures of all people of all shapes, sizes and colours, that would be one thing. But it doesn't. It is strictly a thread to post pictures of 'hot' women so they can oogle. You're right, it's natural to look. But when it degrades to '7/10, would not bang,' is that natural? Would you ever say that to a woman?

The entire thread is dedicated to judging women based on their appearance and I would have thought that you, after your struggles with weight, would understand how being judged based solely on your appearance affects people. It is not a positive discussion and does nto help at all.

No, my picture isn't in the thread and so I myself am not being judged. However when I see a picture of a lady whom I think is quite beautiful gets a rating of 7/10, would not bang, how do you think that makes me feel? Like a 3/10, would not bang. How do you think that affects my self-worth?

It doesn't take a scientist to understand that men want to stick their dick in the prettiest thing possible. It also isn't science to understand that the majority of women don't conform to the ideal. I don't really give a flying who-ha what the perfect waist to hip ratio is for women but I bet that science could probably tell you most women don't have that either.

What exactly are you trying to 'better understand' with a thread full of pictures of women? Science suggests that men objectifying women is evolutionary so that makes it okay?

You're trying to turn a thread dedicated to judging women based on appearance into some sort of social and scientific experiment. It's not. It's just insulting.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Everything that constitutes human sexuality is not okay. Rape is natural too, does that make it okay? Interspecies sex is natural too, is that okay? Pedophilia is also natural but I'm sure you'd hear a resounding no, that's not okay. We are supposed to be above our baser instincts as a species.

Sorry, I have to call bull#### on this paragraph. These are all considered perversions in sexual definition terms. I wouldn't suggest that any of these are considered "natural". Your point is crap.

I also want to stick up for Thor in this debate because it's now getting to the point where people are angry at him for bringing up information and data into this discussion, and then bring up some very rational points in order to possibly explain behavior, whether good or bad behavior. He's not the enemy here, so let's calm down just a little please. I for one am intrigued by what he has to say and I don't think it's a problem to have a discussion about sexuality AS WELL AS the discussion about how it manifests in our social interactions and how it might play a role in sexism or misogyny. I don't think it's off-topic at all, I think it's relevant.

[Itse]

I don't think it's a problem to have a discussion about sexuality AS WELL AS the discussion about how it manifests in our social interactions and how it might play a role in sexism or misogyny. I don't think it's off-topic at all, I think it's relevant.

Seems clear to me that you're in the minority, and it would be nice if we stopped derailing this thread with it.

Human sexuality is a vast topic, and especially if we're trying to approach from any angle anybody wants to talk about, there's no way we can get anywhere on the actual topic of the thread.

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Sorry, I have to call bull#### on this paragraph. These are all considered perversions in sexual definition terms. I wouldn't suggest that any of these are considered "natural". Your point is crap.

And I would call BS on your paragraph. So now we could have a debate about that. Or not. Because I really would like to see this thread back on topic.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Sorry, I have to call bull#### on this paragraph. These are all considered perversions in sexual definition terms. I wouldn't suggest that any of these are considered "natural". Your point is crap.

That's a pretty subjective statement. Unless you can confirm that the origins of these perversions aren't biological or genetic, then you'd have hard time establishing that they're not "natural."

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's a pretty subjective statement. Unless you can confirm that the origins of these perversions aren't biological or genetic, then you'd have hard time establishing that they're not "natural."

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...al+Perversions

I don't want to derail this any further quite frankly, but what FireFly and Thor are talking about are two completely different things and it's a false equivalency argument that pisses me off.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

If we're talking purely about the comments being a problem, and not the actual images themselves, then I have a suggestion. Call that person out for their stupid and inane comment and hold that individual accountable, rather than holding the entire forum hostage.

I have to tell you though, it will likely never stop because there are always idiots out there, and the price you have to pay for a free and open society and a forum where discussion is allowed under certain guidelines means that you have to endure reading stupid crap from people like that once in a while.

Now, if someone can indicate to me that the forum, or that thread, is actually breeding hatred towards women, or is subtly undermining their status in this forum, then I'm all for getting rid of whatever that thing is that is causing it.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

nm double post

[Winsor_Pilates]

Reading people piling on Thor is getting pretty painful.

No where has he defended comments like "would not bang" yet people keep quoting him and connecting his wanting to discuss sexual nature and desires to condoning those comments.

Those sort of comments come from a very small contingent of CP members and 90%+ of males on this board will agree they are terrible and too common.

It seems anyone in this thread who tries to offer any opinion other than YLYL is completely 100% sexist will get lumped in with that crowd, so why not take the word "discussion" out of the thread title and end thread/

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It seems anyone in this thread who tries to offer any opinion other than YLYL is completely 100% sexist will get lumped in with that crowd, so why not take the word "discussion" out of the thread title and end thread/

There has been plenty of discussion on whether or not that thread is okay or not, and I don't see anybody lumping Thor into any pile.

But sometimes it happens that several people answer to a single post, and pretty much all of them disagree. If you would have actually read the posts, you might have noticed that people disagreed with Thors notion about what are worthwhile discussion points on this thread.

It's not about Thor.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

The amount of self righteousness in this thread is off the charts. Stop trying to shame men for being turned on by women. I don't try to shame women for reading 50 shades or watching Magic Mike.

God forbid Thor brings some science to this topic. Nah, just another misogynist.

The victimization of our society is getting old.

[photon]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

The amount of self righteousness in this thread is off the charts. Stop trying to shame men for being turned on by women.

Good thing no one's done that.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

The amount of self righteousness in this thread is off the charts. Stop trying to shame men for being turned on by women. I don't try to shame women for reading 50 shades or watching Magic Mike.

This hasn't happened once in this thread. Might want to either work on your reading comprehension skills, or actually read the entire thread.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

The amount of self righteousness in this thread is off the charts. Stop trying to shame men for being turned on by women. I don't try to shame women for reading 50 shades or watching Magic Mike.

God forbid Thor brings some science to this topic. Nah, just another misogynist.

The victimization of our society is getting old.

Which is weirder?

That you listed multiple things that have never happened in this thread?
Or that two people blindly thanked you for that fiction?