YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Just wanted to add that this whole debate kind of kicked off when myself and few others argued that there was still quite a heavy presence of homophobia and misogyny on CP, and then the YLYL thread was used an example. Whether you think it is an example of misogyny or not, it's pretty clear from the number of female posters who have commented in here that they do view misogyny as a major problem. I'm wondering, what does the community and the moderating team think can be done to be more proactive about dealing with misogyny, so that this is a welcome space for female posters?

While I completely agree with almost everything you (and others making similar points in this thread) said, I think it's fair to make a key distinction that while there is an incredible amount of sexism on this forum -- and that's absolutely a problem that should be dealt with -- I haven't seen much in the way of outright misogyny. When it does come up, such as in that MGTOW thread recently, the misogynists are called out for their crap, ridiculed, and (at least in that particular case) banned from the forum.

To a certain extent, though, casual sexism can be an even greater problem than misogyny. Most people will recognize and condemn the latter, but the former is insidious and can even be accepted by the majority male population of this site.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Thor

Actually I've said it repeatedly that there are 2 issues here for me, one is if this feels degrading or demeans CP forums and makes our female members (especially) bothered then I am all for removing it. The other one is a much deeper discussion about human sexuality, our attitudes towards them, what the science says, what society deems..

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women

So are you saying that the sexual objectification of women is okay because science says it's natural even if society is finally deciding it isn't okay?

This conversation has nothing at all to do with human sexuality. Men masturbate to pics of hot women. We know that and we get it. Should women be subjected to it when they want to converse? Would you ever stop a conversation with a hot chick to say ''hang on a sec while I get off to thoughts of you?" Would that be okay because you're just looking at her and men are stimulated visually?

Agreed, I don't follow the thread enough to remember seeing a lot of degrading comments, I'm sure there are though, sadly.



That baffles me as well, idiots who do that. My guess is some men feel threatened about seeing hot muscular guys being posted, gives them a taste of what women sometimes feel, and I'm sure the irony is lost on those guys.

I don't think you get the point of that entire thread is to objectify women. Which is a manifestation of Misogyny.

The MGTOW thread was another fine example saying that women use men for babies and money...

You're trying to turn this into some deep discussion of whether or not it's okay to think women are sexy and look at boobs and ass. Which is not at all related to a woman's sexuality, only saying 'this is what men do so it's okay, it's human.'

Here's a question for you: Does the thread promote the objectification of women?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Here's a question for you: Does the thread promote the objectification of women?

Yes.


Should the thread be non-gender specific?

Yes


Could I then post my man-crush Jude Law?


Yes

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FireFly

The MGTOW thread was another fine example saying that women use men for babies and money...

To be fair, I don't recall too many posters agreeing with buddy in that thread.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

The last place I worked was the very epitome of Boys Club. Not only did I deal with constant rumours about being promiscuous, I also had to deal with the managers and my co-workers setting up meetings in places like Hooters or other "guys" places. If I spoke up, it was "Why can you just be cool?" or "I guess we can't have any fun, we have to be PC for the lady." I usually just put up with it, but I hated it and it was uncomfortable. Have you ever been sitting in on a meeting at Hooters and have some low life suit ask you when you are going to change into your shortie shorts and tank to start your shift because he wants to see your tits, all in front of your bosses/co-workers, who think it's hilarious? It was degrading. Off tangent really, but it paints the picture of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

I've been a recipient of inappropriate comments like that before from colleagues (although not to that extent) and I know how it feels. I think things like that happen in the workplace a lot more than people realize.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

While I completely agree with almost everything you (and others making similar points in this thread) said, I think it's fair to make a key distinction that while there is an incredible amount of sexism on this forum -- and that's absolutely a problem that should be dealt with -- I haven't seen much in the way of outright misogyny. When it does come up, such as in that MGTOW thread recently, the misogynists are called out for their crap, ridiculed, and (at least in that particular case) banned from the forum.

To a certain extent, though, casual sexism can be an even greater problem than misogyny. Most people will recognize and condemn the latter, but the former is insidious and can even be accepted by the majority male population of this site.

As FireFly kind of alluded to, I think sexism is pretty big part of misogyny. I'm finding it difficult to think of something that is sexist but not misogynist and vice-versa.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

While I completely agree with almost everything you (and others making similar points in this thread) said, I think it's fair to make a key distinction that while there is an incredible amount of sexism on this forum -- and that's absolutely a problem that should be dealt with -- I haven't seen much in the way of outright misogyny. When it does come up, such as in that MGTOW thread recently, the misogynists are called out for their crap, ridiculed, and (at least in that particular case) banned from the forum.

To a certain extent, though, casual sexism can be an even greater problem than misogyny. Most people will recognize and condemn the latter, but the former is insidious and can even be accepted by the majority male population of this site.

I'm not sure it's right to call one misogyny and the other merely sexism (see Firefly's definition), but I do agree that the latter is more problematic. The MGTOW thread causes everyone to rally together against an easy opponent. But when more subtle sexist comments are made, I think the general attitude (and I'm guilty of this) is to just ignore it rather than call it out or report it to the mods. I'd like to think that there's a majority of posters on here who view inclusiveness as an important part of the community, but we probably tend to be a silent majority. So we need to do a better job about showing the moderators where we think the line is. I mentioned before a vicious circle in attitudes in the YLYL thread, but I think that exists in the greater community: if women (or LGBTs) are discouraged from contributing or posting in an equal way, this means that there are probably also members who do not identify themselves for these reasons, and potential members who do not join up. And so the 'old boys club' perception is reinforced.

[Eastern Girl]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'm actually glad you stuck around. A few years ago there was a "post your mug" thread or something and certain people hounded you like dogs to get you to post your picture until a mod had to step in, as if somehow how you looked was at all relevant to the quality of your posts. I think that was a low point for this board.

I add nothing of value to the site, but thank you.

You could argue I started all that stuff that happened in that thread. I had posted my picture in the now defunct CP Map thread a year or a few prior to the Post your Mug thread popping up. When the Post your Mug thread appeared, someone mentioned me in the CP Map thread and people started asking where they could find it so they could look at my picture. That's when I asked the mods to delete it so I didn't have to deal with any posts/PMs about it again. The mods obliged, which I greatly appreciated, but it didn't make a difference obviously. I didn't know you could chant someone's name through text.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by rubecube

As FireFly kind of alluded to, I think sexism is pretty big part of misogyny. I'm finding it difficult to think of something that is sexist but not misogynist and vice-versa.

Misogyny is hatred of (or hostility towards) women. The MGTOW thread, every single post in /r/TheRedPill, that dude that went on a rampage killing sorority girls in Santa Barbara because he couldn't get a date (which prompted the #YesAllWomen hastag) -- those are all examples of misogyny.

Sexism is a different beast, and it's expressed in many ways. It often takes the form of a societal or institutional bias against one gender (usually women, but men and transgendered people can be victims of sexism as well).

This Quora article does a pretty decent job explaining the difference:

http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-di...-some-examples

Sexism is believing someone is inferior based solely on their sex.

Male Chauvinism is sexism + arrogance.

Misogyny is sexism + hatred.

[...]

You are the hiring manager. You are interviewing two candidates: a woman with more education and experience, and a man with less education and experience. All other aspects (personality, etc.) are completely equal.

Sexism: You hire the man. Yeah, the woman was better qualified, but you just feel like the man would do the job better. He reminds you of a young "you."

Male Chauvinism: You hire the man. Yeah, the chick was better qualified, but it's a stressful job, and women don't work under pressure as well as men. You can't afford to have her crying in the bathroom each month when she's PMSing or something. Besides, she wasn't even that hot.

Misogyny: You hire the man because there's no way a girl can hack it in your office. You know what's wrong with America? All these f***** women suing people and taking jobs away from hard working men. It's reverse discrimination, and by God, you're not going to be a part of it.

[WhiteTiger]

What do I think about the YLYL thread? I like it. But I'd like it to be better. It's come quite a ways since it started, but it's still got a ways to go.

Back when it started, you'd have a couple of pics, and then a lot of various (and generally negative) commentary. These days, it is trending the other way, due to mods and self-policing. The negative commentary is one of the big things that I dislike personally about it, too.

I understand that beauty comes in all shapes and sizes, and I recall a discussion a while ago in YLYL about that, after another poster posted some 'larger' girls, and I posted some London Andrews pics. The commentary got rather disgusting, frankly.

I also wasn't impressed with the reaction to a couple posters posting pics of hot guys. I didn't care. They weren't my cup of tea, but thanks to the wonders of the scroll button...I just kept going until I found a picture I did like.

Amusingly, I also found that things got better in the thread when I stopped trying to 'read' what folks would like, and posting pictures I found that I liked. Which tends to be at least a 3/4 body shot, and not just a closeup of T or A. No "selfies" style pics. Most of the pics I post are from various modelling shoots where the person being photographed is 100% clear that the pic is being taken, and knows that it's going "out into the public".

I have also discovered that you just can't please everyone. I posted pics that were more heavily "modelled" and airbrushed, and folks called them plastic. I post pics of women with tats, and folks say it's a shame that women have despoiled themselves like that. I post pics of 'larger' women, and folks recoil in disgust and say that "we" need to keep our "fetishes" to ourselves. I post pics of thinner girls, and the "eat a sammich" comments come out.

Everyone who seems to have a negative opinion sure likes to come to the internet and spout it out. Which kinda seems to be the purpose of the internet, really. Don't like what you see? Don't bother with the disparaging comment, just keep scrolling until you do see something that catches your eye. Don't see something catching your eye? POST something that does. That's kind of been how I've been dealing with the YLYL thread.

Why do I do it? Because I enjoy finding pics of ladies that aren't "n00dz" and that are eye-catching.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So are you saying that the sexual objectification of women is okay because science says it's natural even if society is finally deciding it isn't okay?

Woah, nowhere have I said such a thing, have you read this thread from the beginning?

This conversation has nothing at all to do with human sexuality. Men masturbate to pics of hot women. We know that and we get it.

Well the thread is about 2 things, should we close it, and how do we square our understand of human sexuality with what is acceptable, whats evolution, whats environmental, etc.. Most people here have said there is nothing wrong with images of beautiful women, but the comments that follow are the problem, unless you think the images are bad as well, not sure.

Should women be subjected to it when they want to converse? Would you ever stop a conversation with a hot chick to say ''hang on a sec while I get off to thoughts of you?" Would that be okay because you're just looking at her and men are stimulated visually?

I think you are taking a big leap here. Where did I suggest this?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm finding it difficult to think of something that is sexist but not misogynist and vice-versa.

I don't agree. I think there's plenty of sexism that isn't misogynistic.

Iggy Pop is I think a good example. Very sexist (nsfw link), not misogynist.



That picture brings to mind a truly and openly misogynistic comment type that is all too common in hockey and even on this site, labeling unlikable players "girly".

The problem with sexism isn't so much that it exists, but more that it's so one-sided and that it's so easy to attach some really bad crap on the side of otherwise harmless things. Sexism is IMO fine if it's consensual, but in our society it rarely is. Women just have to put up with too much of it.

I mean, I don't think the goal of "the PC police" as some call it is to get rid of sexism. What I think is a somewhat achievable goal is limiting it to a point where it bothers people's lives less.

Btw, I think one option would be to just to moving it into some subforum.

It might be interesting to see how much less traffic it would get if it wasn't constantly on the first page of the main Off topic -page. After all, if people forget about it if it's not constantly in front of them, then I guess it's not that valuable as a part of the forums?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Misogyny is hatred of (or hostility towards) women. The MGTOW thread, every single post in /r/TheRedPill, that dude that went on a rampage killing sorority girls in Santa Barbara because he couldn't get a date (which prompted the #YesAllWomen hastag) -- those are all examples of misogyny.

Sexism is a different beast, and it's expressed in many ways. It often takes the form of a societal or institutional bias against one gender (usually women, but men and transgendered people can be victims of sexism as well).

This Quora article does a pretty decent job explaining the difference:

http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-di...-some-examples

So it's more of a "All misogynists are sexist, but not all sexists are misogynists." I'm not sure if I agree with that entirely, mainly because of how hostile sexists seem to get towards women who challenge their sexism, but I guess there are subtle differences. To me, sexism shows that you at least hold another gender in low-esteem, which should generally be seen as hostile, shouldn't it?

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Thor

Well the thread is about 2 things, should we close it, and how do we square our understand of human sexuality with what is acceptable, whats evolution, whats environmental, etc..

The thread isn't really about either of those things. It's about whether the YLYL thread is misogynistic and how the women of CP feel about it.

The evolutionary and environmental understanding of human sexuality is something pretty much only you are trying to focus on. It's fairly off topic due to it's very loose correlation to the subject matter.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You're trying to turn this into some deep discussion of whether or not it's okay to think women are sexy and look at boobs and ass. Which is not at all related to a woman's sexuality, only saying 'this is what men do so it's okay, it's human.'

I really don't understand your hostility here. I am fascinated by the science of human sexuality, have been for a long time. From my first post I clearly stated there's two discussions for me, one is if this thread bothers posters and especially to women here we should remove it.

Two, is sexuality is so often ridiculed, shamed, and in this case an emotional issue that I like to stick to what we know, the science, our best understanding and try to make a rational discussion of something so important, healthy and fun. By suggesting this, nowhere do I condone Misogyny. Men objectify women, the science suggests there is a lot of biological evolution to play here, and because its uncomfortable you shout down me for wanting to discuss it?

Sure sexuality as a discussion can be uncomfortable, society loves to demonize, shame and try to tell people what they should or should not be aroused by. Its also quite complex, touches on various scientific fields and its a great topic of calm, rational and thoughtful discussion. I'm disappointed at your reaction to my statements, feel they are unwarranted and insulting for no good reason.

Here's a question for you: Does the thread promote the objectification of women?

Obviously both men and women objectify each other, its a baser instinct. Does this thread promote it, it certainly seems so by the reactions by many here. The discussion about "does this thread belong in CP"; I agreed it probably doesn't.

I have said, that I think there is nothing wrong with men looking at these photo's, because its natural for us (and women). What I would disagree with is the suggestion that is made often that men who look at these pictures should not, or are misogynistic for doing so.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

The thread isn't really about either of those things. It's about whether the YLYL thread is misogynistic and how the women of CP feel about it.

The evolutionary and environmental understanding of human sexuality is something pretty much only you are trying to focus on. It's fairly off topic due to it's very loose correlation to the subject matter.

Sorry, meant to say "2 things for me.."

[Thor]

By the way, a neuroscience friend of mine directed me to Objectification theory, which is pretty new, 2007 and a work in progress if anyone is interested you can help the study by contributing to this online questionare.

http://www.objectificationtheory.com/?forms

But I'll leave this stuff alone, guess I'm the only one keen on discussion this aspect of all of this

Why don't the mods have a poll, let people vote, be curious to see how that pans out.

[MissTeeks]

We had a thread for hot guys. We did our draft and moved on from it.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=73912

[Chill Cosby]

Labelled the points just so I can address them individually:

Originally Posted by Thor

1. I really don't understand your hostility here. I am fascinated by the science of human sexuality, have been for a long time. From my first post I clearly stated there's two discussions for me, one is if this thread bothers posters and especially to women here we should remove it.



2. Two, is sexuality is so often ridiculed, shamed, and in this case an emotional issue that I like to stick to what we know, the science, our best understanding and try to make a rational discussion of something so important, healthy and fun. By suggesting this, nowhere do I condone Misogyny. Men objectify women, the science suggests there is a lot of biological evolution to play here, and because its uncomfortable you shout down me for wanting to discuss it?



3. Sure sexuality as a discussion can be uncomfortable, society loves to demonize, shame and try to tell people what they should or should not be aroused by. Its also quite complex, touches on various scientific fields and its a great topic of calm, rational and thoughtful discussion.

4. What I would disagree with is the suggestion that is made often that men who look at these pictures should not, or are misogynistic for doing so.

1. I think you know why a certain amount of hostility exists. If you constantly excuse the objectification of women as "science" then you're going to get a negative reaction.

2. There is nothing healthy and fun about "5/10, would not bang" or "look at his wife, gross!". Who is that fun for? Who is it healthy for? As said above, we are a highly evolved species capable of a great many thing, so to say that men objectify women because of evolution not only excuses it, but does so in a fairly silly way. Considering the amount of men who are able to separate their biological reactions from their outwardly reactions, I'd say it's a lame excuse.

3. This whole point is dangerously condescending. This thread isn't about what you are/are not allowed to be aroused by, nor is anyone in this thread uncomfortable talking about sex. Suggesting FireFly is not calm, or rational enough to have a discussion about sexuality is probably incredibly insulting. (Granted, you may not have meant it, but be careful).

4. Who has said that in this thread? Where is the discussion about how men who look at those pictures shouldn't or are misogynists for doing so? It hasn't been said once as far as I can tell, so who are you disagreeing with? If anything, most of the women have specifically said there is nothing wrong with the pictures or those who enjoy looking at beautiful people.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Thor

By the way, a neuroscience friend of mine directed me to Objectification theory, which is pretty new, 2007 and a work in progress if anyone is interested you can help the study by contributing to this online questionare.

http://www.objectificationtheory.com/?forms

Tried doing this but didn't really get it. What do they mean by loving? It's also hard to say if something is sexualized if it's just a black outline. Pretty much removes any context.