Police shooting of unarmed teen leads to protests and Riot

[Arya Stark]

What I want to know is what if the guy didn't have a knife but a gun hidden in his pants? Were the cops willing to have a shootout with all those people standing behind the culprit?

The cops pulled up and pointed their guns directly at him with many innocent people in the line of fire. If the culprit did pull out a gun, how many people were going to get shot in a shootout?

Was the situation that extreme that they had to come in like ghost busters? Couldn't they have stalked him for a while, cleared the scene, waited for backup?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

What I want to know is what if the guy didn't have a knife but a gun hidden in his pants? Were the cops willing to have a shootout with all those people standing behind the culprit?

The cops pulled up and pointed their guns directly at him with many innocent people in the line of fire. If the culprit did pull out a gun, how many people were going to get shot in a shootout?

Was the situation that extreme that they had to come in like ghost busters? Couldn't they have stalked him for a while, cleared the scene, waited for backup?

The problem is in many instances the law will state "you shall" arrest, there is no wiggle room in that. I'm not sure what the original call was that required police to attend. If it was something like, there's a man with a knife, the public expectation would be that you go deal with that situation ASAP. And you can what if a situation to death. What if the police waited back and the guy started stabbing people? Then the criticism would be that police failed to act. As for the potential shootout, of course that's not ideal, but if a guy is gonna shoot at you, you are pretty much out of options. This is where training takes over and hopefully your rounds hit the guy centre mass and none miss.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

The problem is in many instances the law will state "you shall" arrest, there is no wiggle room in that. As for the potential shootout, of course that's not ideal, but if a guy is gonna shoot at you, you are pretty much out of options. This is where training takes over and hopefully your rounds hit the guy centre mass and none miss.

Yes, but my thoughts are that the police created the dangerous situation by pulling out their guns. They didn't even attempt to talk to him. They had their guns out instantaneously. So I do think they had the right to shoot him after he came so close with a knife, but the situation didn't have to escalate so fast.

I bet if this happened in Canada, the cops would have handled this much better.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Yes, but my thoughts are that the police created the dangerous situation by pulling out their guns. They didn't even attempt to talk to him. They had their guns out instantaneously. So I do think they had the right to shoot him after he came so close with a knife, but the situation didn't have to escalate so fast.

I bet if this happened in Canada, the cops would have handled this much better.

Ya, that's right. It's the fault of the police.

Move along, nothing to see here.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Ya, that's right. It's the fault of the police.

Move along, nothing to see here.

For creating the situation yes, not for shooting the guy coming at them with a knife. Jeez, if you can't discuss things without sounding like a little baby then don't reply to my posts.

I said several times they were justified in shooting him, but they could have handled the situation better when coming to the scene so it didn't get to the point where they had to shoot him.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

For creating the situation yes, not for shooting the guy coming at them with a knife. Jeez, if you can't discuss things without sounding like a little baby then don't reply to my posts.

I said several times they were justified in shooting him, but they could have handled the situation better when coming to the scene so it didn't get to the point where they had to shoot him.

Haha... priceless... straight to the personal insults... sign of a good poster.


If you can't go back and read posts that have addressed EVERYTHING you have said, then logically discuss them, then maybe just stop posting.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Yes, but my thoughts are that the police created the dangerous situation by pulling out their guns. They didn't even attempt to talk to him. They had their guns out instantaneously. So I do think they had the right to shoot him after he came so close with a knife, but the situation didn't have to escalate so fast.

I bet if this happened in Canada, the cops would have handled this much better.

I disagree, the guy created the dangerous situation by presenting enough threats to the officers resulting in them drawing their sidearms. They didn't pull guns on him then he drew a knife out of self defence. This guy had one objective and that was to get shot.

That lasted what 11 or 12 seconds from arrival to shooting? I'm assuming it went something like the officers yelled "knife" to alert the other that there was a weapon in play, then yelled "police! stop!" in order to properly identify themselves then likely something along the lines of drop the weapon. Now the identification as police is very important legally as it has been argued in the courts that a person didn't know the police officer was actually a police officer. How do you have a rationale conversation with an agitated person holding a knife? Clue: you don't. Drop the knife and we can talk, if you charge at me with that knife I will shoot you. There is no grey in that situation.

It didn't have to escalate that fast, the guy didn't need to charge the cops with a knife, tragically it cost him his life.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

So if he's cleared of wrongdoing he should still lose his job???

Desk duty then. If he is hiding now do you think people will still forgive him? I don't think its a safe idea to put him back out on the Ferguson streets.

[WhiteTiger]

The thing that gets me with this is the whole "he was unarmed" or "he only had a little knife" comments. I wonder if people consider that there are folks out there who are trained in unarmed or melee weapon combat.

Myself, for instance...I have the training that if I can get to within arms reach of you, I can kill or incapacitate you with one hit. You wouldn't know it from looking at me. In fact, one might almost assume the opposite.

If you, as a police officer, risked letting someone like me into arms reach, even if it doesn't look like I'm holding a weapon, it would likely go very, very poorly for you. Would you take that risk? Every time you deal with someone?

As to the size of the knife...keep in mind how close to the edge of one's throat one's windpipe is.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

There won't be a next time IMO. He is a house hold name synonymous with shooting an unarmed teen. Even if he's cleared in no way should any police force take him. That would be asking for trouble.

I don't see this. The guy moves a State or two away, and away he goes. Someone asks, and he could say "nope, not me." It's not like "Darren Wilson" is an uncommon name or anything.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

The thing that gets me with this is the whole "he was unarmed" or "he only had a little knife" comments. I wonder if people consider that there are folks out there who are trained in unarmed or melee weapon combat.

Myself, for instance...I have the training that if I can get to within arms reach of you, I can kill or incapacitate you with one hit. You wouldn't know it from looking at me. In fact, one might almost assume the opposite.

If you, as a police officer, risked letting someone like me into arms reach, even if it doesn't look like I'm holding a weapon, it would likely go very, very poorly for you. Would you take that risk? Every time you deal with someone?

As to the size of the knife...keep in mind how close to the edge of one's throat one's windpipe is.

Okay, fair enough, but still I don't think cops go into every scenario thinking they are dealing with either you or Jason Bourne (assuming you aren't Jason Bourne, which, by the sounds of it, might be a bad assumption on my part). The streets would be littered with bodies if that were the case.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I don't see this. The guy moves a State or two away, and away he goes. Someone asks, and he could say "nope, not me." It's not like "Darren Wilson" is an uncommon name or anything.

Assuming they never saw his picture.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Okay, fair enough, but still I don't think cops go into every scenario thinking they are dealing with either you or Jason Bourne (assuming you aren't Jason Bourne, which, by the sounds of it, might be a bad assumption on my part). The streets would be littered with bodies if that were the case.

Hah! I only wish I was Jason Bourne. But the thing is, I've had years of martial arts training.

Thing is, a lot of people don't fight (this is good, really...) much. I wonder how many people have made it through to their current age without a single actual fight. Most of the folks I know have. So I think that a lot of people tend to discredit just how fast and how much damage can be done by someone who DOES or has fought.

Consider, in this case, the weight differential. Cop is 200, Brown was 300. All Brown would have had to do is bowl into the cop, and all the sudden the cop is underneath and in a very bad way. Brown doesn't even have to 'hit' the cop, all he has to do is lay on him.

Humans are incredibly fragile beings. Yeah, a "one shot to the head to k.o. or kill" sounds like something out of a movie, but it's not. Consider how often it happens accidentally. As I previously mentioned, a human's windpipe is very close to the front of the neck, which isn't all that big itself.

You don't even have to be a trained fighter. Hopped up on adrenaline and get a lucky shot? Even a small guy can cause some serious one hit damage. That's the crux of a lot of the issues...what sort of risk did you feel you were in?

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Okay, fair enough, but still I don't think cops go into every scenario thinking they are dealing with either you or Jason Bourne (assuming you aren't Jason Bourne, which, by the sounds of it, might be a bad assumption on my part). The streets would be littered with bodies if that were the case.

Actually, that is exactly how police are trained because the consequences for not going into a situation like that can be lethal. That doesn't mean they draw their guns and start giving commands. There is still obviously a use of force continuum. This continuum changes based on an infinite amount of possibilities ranging from actions of the perceived threat, environmental conditions, positioning, amount of training, officer ability, etc, etc, etc, etc.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Assuming they never saw his picture.

I've lived in over a dozen different cities. In each one, I've seen at least 4-5 people I'd have sworn were folks I knew from the last city I lived in...but they weren't them.

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Hah! I only wish I was Jason Bourne. But the thing is, I've had years of martial arts training.

Thing is, a lot of people don't fight (this is good, really...) much. I wonder how many people have made it through to their current age without a single actual fight. Most of the folks I know have. So I think that a lot of people tend to discredit just how fast and how much damage can be done by someone who DOES or has fought.

Consider, in this case, the weight differential. Cop is 200, Brown was 300. All Brown would have had to do is bowl into the cop, and all the sudden the cop is underneath and in a very bad way. Brown doesn't even have to 'hit' the cop, all he has to do is lay on him.

Humans are incredibly fragile beings. Yeah, a "one shot to the head to ko or kill" sounds like something out of a movie, but it's not. Consider how often it happens accidentally. As I previously mentioned, a human's windpipe is very close to the front of the neck, which isn't all that big itself.

You don't even have to be a trained fighter. Hopped up on adrenaline and get a lucky shot? Even a small guy can cause some serious one hit damage. That's the crux of a lot of the issues...what sort of risk did you feel you were in?

You've hit the nail on the head. While I have no idea what happened in the Brown case, in a general discussion of lethal force, it is the officers perception of GBH or death that matters and how (if he can) he can articulate that perception afterwards.

[V]

Well that's kinda the point, isn't it? It seems to be very subjective, and it also appears to be significantly different in the States than it is anywhere else in the first world. The kind of stuff that gets trotted out here is comical when you consider how seldom lethal force needs to be used, I don't know, anywhere else in the first world.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by V

Well that's kinda the point, isn't it? It seems to be very subjective, and it also appears to be significantly different in the States than it is anywhere else in the first world. The kind of stuff that gets trotted out here is comical when you consider how seldom lethal force needs to be used, I don't know, anywhere else in the first world.

It is very subjective.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by V

Well that's kinda the point, isn't it? It seems to be very subjective, and it also appears to be significantly different in the States than it is anywhere else in the first world. The kind of stuff that gets trotted out here is comical when you consider how seldom lethal force needs to be used, I don't know, anywhere else in the first world.

This is why I like stats. Everything might look fine when you look at the trees, even when you look at all the trees, but when you look at the forest you can spot the problems.

Reminds me of this Onion article.

[WhiteTiger]

The perspective I look at it from is that how do you step it down? To step things down, both sides have to agree to step down.

So the government decides to take cops guns away and have them only have billy clubs and tasers. How long do you think they would last against folks with handguns and automatic rifles? Do you think that the criminals will say "Well, the cops don't have guns, guess we should give ours up to keep things fair."

Trust me, I look at the situation in the States, and I worry about where it'll go, where it'll end. I feel that we are watching an internal arms race, and I'm a bit scared of where it'll end up going, honestly.

But disarming the folks who are willing to voluntarily step between my family and the 'bad guys'...seems like a bad idea to me. Are those volunteers always the best of people? Nope, and they need to be held accountable when they fail. But taking away the tools to do their job? Quick way to run out of them, I'm thinking.