[Signing] Flames Sign Devin Setoguchi to one year 750k deal.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

No. By the time a player has any chance of outgrowning the AHL they're waiver eligible and another team will notice and pick them up. Detroit, arguably the best when it comes to developing players, has no problem keeping players in the AHL that have probably shown NHL glimpses. Players like Kindl, Smith and Tatar. Then there was Nyquist who in the 2012-2013 was over a point-per-game player in the AHL (for the second season in a row) and eventually called up and played every playoff game for the Red Wings that year. If anyone has ever graduated from the AHL it was Nyquist, yet the Red Wings still started him in the AHL for the 2013-2014 season. He put up 21 points in 15 games with the Rapids before joining the Red Wings full-time and putting up 48 points in 57 games as a 24 year old. Detroit fans have seen it time and time again of players having to earn their spot, show that they are well beyond the AHL or the European leagues, and even then they have no issue scratching you until you're proven to be a full-time NHLer. It's worked for them. This season at least two of Mantha, Jurco or Pulkkinen will start in the AHL and no Detroit fan is jumping over the bridge because of that possibility.

There are players like Zach Boychuk who are borderline NHL players who put up great points in the AHL but can't translate their game consistently to the NHL. However, Boychuk has been given every opportunity to play in the NHL including three different teams and nearly 100 NHL games. And at 24 I'd hardly say his NHL career is completely over.

It is an absurd concept to me that people feel that the Flames have players who have outgrown the AHL. Gaudreau obviously did outgrow College, but until he puts those points up in the AHL I don't think he's come close to showing he will have his development ruined by starting in the AHL. Baertschi certainly hasn't shown to have outgrown the AHL. Bennett is the only one I can see having a reasonable argument about outgrowing his league, and that's only because he can't play in the AHL. I don't think playing in the CHL one more year will ruin him though, give him time to bulk up.

Hockey is a game of probabilities, therefore ice time and exposure should be enough to yield points over time. Only very special players are able to make.things happen on the ice every single time, whereas most players have cycles of "hot streaks" and "cold streaks".

Having an open roster spot on the 4th line isn't valuable exposure, as indicated by GMs who would rather them getting 25 minutes a night in a lesser league. However, stacking a roster where the only spots available are those 4th line spots make it difficult for players to crack the roster. Lets not be naive - a GM has the power to create a.system that fosters less rookie ice time. If they want it to happen, it will happen.

Chances are Gaudreau, Baertschi, Poirer and Granlund will outplay Bollig, Jones, Setoguchi, and Byron, but someone will feel that they need premium ice time in the AHL. So why give it your all in training camp when you never stood a chance?

[Split98]

Just to follow up, let's put Gaudreau and Baertschi in there. If they had a great camp:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Hudler
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Baertschi - Stajan - Raymond
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

Pine: Jones and Setoguchi

Both players people are upset about being on the team are on pine. IF Gaudreau and Baertschi force their way onto the team, the Flames win. If they don't, and show they could benefit from some time developing the Flames still have a full roster... and they win. So, win/win.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Split98

Just to follow up, let's put Gaudreau and Baertschi in there. If they had a great camp:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Hudler
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Baertschi - Stajan - Raymond
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

Pine: Jones and Setoguchi

Both players people are upset about being on the team are on pine. IF Gaudreau and Baertschi force their way onto the team, the Flames win. If they don't, and show they could benefit from some time developing the Flames still have a full roster... and they win. So, win/win.

And if they play better and don't make the team?

[ricardodw]

To me this signing makes it official. The Flames management is going for the the tank job 2015.

It doesn't make any sense that the Flames signed Hiller.

A good goalie might keep them in 26th spot overall.

Setoughi was a huge disappointment on the Jets last year and him and Jokinen were pushed down to the 3rd line of an underachieving Jets team.

Hudler (30) - Stajan (31) - Jones (30)
Glencross (32) - Backlund (25) - Colborne (24)
Raymond (29) - Monahan (20) - Setoguchi (28)
Bollig (27) - Bouma (24) - Byron (25)
McGrattan (33)

Gio (31) -Wideman (31)
Brodie (24) - Smid (28)
Russell (27) - Engelland (32)

Just looking at the age this roster this is a team that looks to be in its prime... This is the year that they need to make their run before they get too old.

4 players under 25 - 7 over 30.

last year Hartley got a lot out of the young guys getting a taste of the NHL. This year he will be working with a roster that is playing out the end of their careers.

He has a lot harder job this year.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Hockey is a game of probabilities, therefore ice time and exposure should be enough to yield points over time. Only very special players are able to make.things happen on the ice every single time, whereas most players have cycles of "hot streaks" and "cold streaks".

Having an open roster spot on the 4th line isn't valuable exposure, as indicated by GMs who would rather them getting 25 minutes a night in a lesser league. However, stacking a roster where the only spots available are those 4th line spots make it difficult for players to crack the roster. Lets not be naive - a GM has the power to create a.system that fosters less rookie ice time. If they want it to happen, it will happen.

Chances are Gaudreau, Baertschi, Poirer and Granlund will outplay Bollig, Jones, Setoguchi, and Byron, but someone will feel that they need premium ice time in the AHL. So why give it your all in training camp when you never stood a chance?

If any of Gaudreau, Sven, Granlund, ect don't give it their all in camp because they think all roster spots are full, then I really don't want them in any part of the flames organization.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Prospects will make the team this year if they are good enough. If they can't then they can develop in the farm. It's that simple.

No, it isn't that simple. if it was David Jones, TJ Galiardi or Joe Colburne would have spent time in Abby last year.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Split98

Just to follow up, let's put Gaudreau and Baertschi in there. If they had a great camp:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Hudler
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Baertschi - Stajan - Raymond
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

Pine: Jones and Setoguchi

Both players people are upset about being on the team are on pine. IF Gaudreau and Baertschi force their way onto the team, the Flames win. If they don't, and show they could benefit from some time developing the Flames still have a full roster... and they win. So, win/win.

The locker room will always be happy with veterans on the pine.

They moved O'Brien out of the locker room ... without any real replacement when he didn't fit

If Knight or Rienhart or Grandlund force their way on the team does Stajan get the pine as well.

He is a poor excuse for a 3rd line checking centre.

[ricardodw]

With an older lineup there will be a lot of injuries.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

To me this signing makes it official. The Flames management is going for the the tank job 2015.

It doesn't make any sense that the Flames signed Hiller.

A good goalie might keep them in 26th spot overall.

Setoughi was a huge disappointment on the Jets last year and him and Jokinen were pushed down to the 3rd line of an underachieving Jets team.

Hudler (30) - Stajan (31) - Jones (30)
Glencross (32) - Backlund (25) - Colborne (24)
Raymond (29) - Monahan (20) - Setoguchi (28)
Bollig (27) - Bouma (24) - Byron (25)
McGrattan (33)

Gio (31) -Wideman (31)
Brodie (24) - Smid (28)
Russell (27) - Engelland (32)

Just looking at the age this roster this is a team that looks to be in its prime... This is the year that they need to make their run before they get too old.

4 players under 25 - 7 over 30.

last year Hartley got a lot out of the young guys getting a taste of the NHL. This year he will be working with a roster that is playing out the end of their careers.

He has a lot harder job this year.

Agree that it looks like a tank job and that Hartely has a hard job this year.

Kinda disagree that the over 30 players are near the end of their careers. Most of them are pretty close to 30 and still have many years left if they can play well. Being 30 is not even close to players that are 35+.

As for Hiller signing I think it was more for the 2015/2016 season when hopefully Ortio is ready for full time in the NHL . Ortio will need a seasoned vet to lean on. Ramo has his work cut out for him this year. I think in order to be re-signed he will need to show that he is a true 1a starter. Even a 1b showing probably won't get him re-signed because they will have Hiller and hopefully Ortio.

[The Original FFIV]

Last time I checked the pick hasn't dropped for the regular season. All this tank talk is ridiculous, let's wait and see what the roster for opening night looks like before we declare this season over.

[SvenTastic47]

He's not taking any of the rookies spots... You have to earn the spot. Nothing wrong with a depth signing, if Gaudreau or Baertschi out play him in camp and preseason then they will make the team,it's a great signing.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by T@T

No, it isn't that simple. if it was David Jones, TJ Galiardi or Joe Colburne would have spent time in Abby last year.

Once again the simplistic view kicks in.

Take Colborne off the table, everyone knows the only reason he didn't spend time in Abby is because he couldn't. Losing an asset for no reason simply to say "everything is fair" would have been stupid asset management by he Flames, glad our GM and president aren't that dumb.

As for the other two I agree there were spots where you could have argued Sven should have been playing above them. Mix really don't think any other prospect who didn't get called up really came that close to showing the deserved a spot over those wingers. But that's where the simplistically view comes in. Why should the bar for Sven be simply be better than the worst two players on our team (for arguments sake) and you make it? Flames aren't trying to ice there best roster now, that's a win now mode mindset. Flames are trying to ice their best roster 3 years from now. So if Sven is deemed to need more AHL time to groom his game, then who cares if TJ gets his NHL ice time over him. The answer is un-patient fans that pretend they want this team to think about the future but actually only want instant gratification of getting to watch him play now, regardless of whether it has negative long term implications for the team.

Oh, and I agree TJ was outplayed by Sven, but when healthy, Jones was a better complete player every night than Sven was last year.

[browntrout]

I bet season ticket holders are just drooling over this signing

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by browntrout

I bet season ticket holders are just drooling over this signing

I'm pretty much okay with it. No downside.

Although, I am also one of those "crazy" season ticket holders that wants to see the team develop prospects the proper way - and not rush kids into the jaws of the wolves the same way Baertschi was mishandled. I'd be happy to see Sven and Gaudreau spend the entire year in the AHL and have Bennett back in Kingston rather than rushing them into the league - and if they can't beat Setoguchi for a roster spot, then they aren't ready for the NHL yet.

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by SvenTastic47

He's not taking any of the rookies spots... You have to earn the spot. Nothing wrong with a depth signing, if Gaudreau or Baertschi out play him in camp and preseason then they will make the team,it's a great signing.

hope your right...I really do. In all fairness is it right to ask a rookie to outplay a vet...rookies should be given so much more latitude. they should be assessed according to their potential ceiling. setoguchi could easily get 50 points with the right linemates. Are we expecting rookies to come in and put up those numbers, high expectations if you ask me.

if gaudreau only puts up 35 points...is that a failure considering setoguchi would have put up 50 points in a similar role...

the whole part of rebuilding is to build for the future, I think we are all guility of expecting rookies to give us instant results

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by browntrout

I bet season ticket holders are just drooling over this signing

Man 2014 is a pretty bad year for new posters.

[ricosuave]

It's an extremely low-risk, high-upside kind of signing.

For those who think he's stealing a spot from a younger guy, well, you just don't understand, plain and simple.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Last time I checked the pick hasn't dropped for the regular season. All this tank talk is ridiculous, let's wait and see what the roster for opening night looks like before we declare this season over.

I'll agree that we should not be calling it "tank job". I think the better term is "rebuild year".

That said nothing wrong with posters thinking that a top 5 pick is more realistic than being close to a playoff spot going into the year. Yes things could change roster wise from now until the puck drops, but the flames would have to somehow make a trade or 2 to get some bonafide 1st line players. I really don't see that happening.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

If any of Gaudreau, Sven, Granlund, ect don't give it their all in camp because they think all roster spots are full, then I really don't want them in any part of the flames organization.

Ok fine.

Then what? More Tim Erixons - players who won't sign and demand to traded? Have an organization with a reputation that no rookie stands a chance?

Hockey is about players. I'm not sure how well versed you are in human resources, but an organization has to adjust to the labour market. Similiar to the relationship between specialists and hospitals, hockey clubs are not competitive without talent. Hockey is leaning towards ELC contracts and bridge contracts, which allows a club to be deep under the cap. With a changing labour climate in hockey, good organizations have to obtain and retain good young talent.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Then what? More Tim Erixons - players who won't sign and demand to traded? Have an organization with a reputation that no rookie stands a chance?

Just no drafting of ex-Ranger's children and the Flames are fine.

You also realize Erixon played in the AHL last year, right? He would have been on the Flames roster if he didn't refuse to sign.