2014 Blue Jays Regular Season Thread

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Tyler

I tend to agree, but it's a tough one. He is the emotional barometer for that room and the go-to leader. Would be a big void to fill if he were gone, but it's almost similar to us with Jarome Iginla. Maybe he being there is holding others back and causing the organization to languish instead of move on?

I agree. I don't like a lot of the personalities on the jays. Several players seem too me first (Lawrie and Bautisa mainly)

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Woooh! 81-81 season again?

It's the Blue Jay way. Really that's the biggest disappointment... They finally spend some money on th big league roster and AA trades away a lot of the upper crust prospects for big league talent... and it's produced a team that wins about as much as it did while spending 50M less and having a more highly touted farm system.

Originally Posted by Caged Great

They don't have any bats that are coming up any time soon that can play. That's a major problem.

Indeed. Potential impact bat's close to the majors are Dalton Pompey (just promoted to AAA) and... Dalton Pompey. I suppose Pentacost could move quickly but every other bat is at least three years (if ever) away from the majors. Barreto might have a quick assent but a quick assent when you're talking about a guy in short-season A ball is still a long time.

It's a major problem. One of the big issues with the jays is that because they have no blue chip bats in the upper system everytime an injury happens they have no one that can step in and they're forced to trot out Kawasaki/Goins/Tolleson/Francisco et al as everyday players.

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Every one of their "good" position prospects have flopped once they reached the majors. Arencibia, Lawrie, Gose, Sierra, Goins, Snider etc.

Lawrie is not a flop... He's more injury prone then you'd like but when he plays he's an above average player with exceptional defense at the hot corner (2B not so much but positional flexability is an asset onto itself). You're right about the rest (and you forgot Thames in the list)... they stunk it up.

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Several players seem too me first (Lawrie and Bautisa mainly)

How is Bautista "me first"? I can't say I've ever seen him do anything that's decidedly "me first" unless you count arguing balls and strikes with the umpires too much (and I don't... it's stupid but not selfish).

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Parallex

How is Bautista "me first"? I can't say I've ever seen him do anything that's decidedly "me first" unless you count arguing balls and strikes with the umpires too much (and I don't... it's stupid but not selfish).

Seems to me he is always swinging for the fences, when the team just needs a hit (not the only Jay to do this BTW). And he seems sullen and moody.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by troutman

Seems to me he is always swinging for the fences, when the team just needs a hit (not the only Jay to do this BTW). And he seems sullen and moody.

He doesn't really sell out for power, if he was a glory hound he wouldn't have his exceptional walk rate... he'd swing at everything and be JP Arencibia. Sorry, I really think that if Bautista sold out his power for contact (and he makes good contact anyways) he'd be a less effective baseball player as he'd end up creating more outs.

[JiriHrdina]

Lawrie is a flop?

[nik-]

Yeah that seemed odd to me too. He also doesn't seem "me first" to me either and seems pretty supportive of his teammates and really into the games. Sometimes he channels his emotion improperly, but I don't think he's part of the problem.

[Muffins]

Originally Posted by Parallex

He doesn't really sell out for power, if he was a glory hound he wouldn't have his exceptional walk rate... he'd swing at everything and be JP Arencibia. Sorry, I really think that if Bautista sold out his power for contact (and he makes good contact anyways) he'd be a less effective baseball player as he'd end up creating more outs.

Exactly!

Let's not forget, the guy has the highest on base % in baseball. That doesn't really say "me first" and "swinging for the fences" to me.

[GirlySports]

Bautista isn't the problem, it's the lack of depth around him.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Bautista isn't the problem, it's the lack of depth around him.

I'd say it's not so much depth around him as depth below him. When the Jays are all healthy their bats are plenty good, amoung the best in baseball good... but the Jays are such an injury prone team so they're rarely that healthy. I'd be shocked if they're not top 5 in man games lost to injury over the past two years.

That would be fine if they spent some dough on bench depth or had a loaded enough rotation to suppress enough runs so that even with lower run support they could still win... but they don't so we are where we are.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I'd say it's not so much depth around him as depth below him. When the Jays are all healthy their bats are plenty good, amoung the best in baseball good... but the Jays are such an injury prone team so they're rarely that healthy. I'd be shocked if they're not top 5 in man games lost to injury over the past two years.

Only against right handed pitching. They were platooning half the lineup and Lawrie was forced to play 2 positions.

The healthy lineup during the May hot streak against right handed pitching was.

SS Reyes
LF Cabrera
RF Bautista
1B Encarnation
DH Lind
C Navarro
3B Francisco
2B Lawrie
CF Rasmus

That was indeed a strong lineup but it was power heavy. Stil sort of feast of famine. Not much speed. They still couldn't win the close game where a run or two were needed.

[Freeway]

Rasmus was out for most of May, I believe.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Lawrie is a flop?

He's always hurt. He's only played 70 games this year, and his OPS is only .722, which is good but it isn't that good, his main replacement Tolleson has played 80 games, getting you a .652 OPS which is quite bad, possibly below replacement level bad. Last year Lawrie only played 107 games. If you're having to endure having 1/2 the games being played by very mediocre players, then it's not a good situation.

It's injuries and lack of depth that kill this team the most and Lawrie is a big part of the problem.

Lawrie's troubles wouldn't be so bad if we had depth to counteract them.

[evman150]

The team is made of the wrong kind of players. Guys like Bautista don't win championships as centrepieces, the only way they can win is as supporting players so the real leaders can keep their bad attitudes in check.

Lawrie's not a bust, he's a good player when healthy, but he has severe attitude problems as well.

Unfortunately, the guys who should be leaders in the room (Buehrle, Dickey, Thole) are the quietest and shortest-tenured. They get drowned out by the "leadership" of Jose "swing for the fences" Bautista.

By the way, saying Bautista doesn't swing for the fences just because he's not as bad/obvious as Arencibia is, doesn't make Bautista innocent of it. Guy doesn't even hit that many home runs anymore. Roids are wearing off I guess.

[SuperMatt18]

Did Bautista kick your dog or something?

[evman150]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Did Bautista kick your dog or something?

No, it just bugs me how worshiped he is Canada. Not without reason at all, of course, but without sufficient reason certainly.

Canadian baseball fans tend not to be as baseball-literate, and fall in love with flashy players like Jose. I just find it amusing when these same fans perpetually soul search for answers on why the team can't win.

I realize it's an incongruent notion - that your best player by any metric could be causing the team to lose - but this ignores the importance of chemistry in baseball.

Jose wins games with his bat, glove, and arm in the short term, but loses games with his mouth and attitude in the long term.

Look at what a guy like Cano has done in Seattle. Even with what for him is an off year, he has been able to transform that team from a bunch of ragtag nothings into what looks like a playoff team. He is the type of player that not only brings the stats, but also raises the level of play of those around him.

Jose brings the stats, but I believe he brings the rest of the team down with his attitude.

But by all means, ignore my opinion and keep soul searching for why the team sucks.

[SuperMatt18]

It's not just Canada that loves Bautista, he has been widely regarded as one of the best in the game in the U.S. for the last 3 seasons as well.

I personally don't think there needs to be soul searching for why the team sucks.

It's called pitching.

Switch Cano and Bautista and Seattle is probably still just as good because they have this guy named Felix, this other guy named Hisashi, plus this other guy named Chris Young.

All three have better stats then any one pitcher on the Blue Jays.

Bautista had a slightly down season this year with his bat, injuries have hurt him, but the issues with the Bluejays begin and end with pitching.

[habernac]

the only thing that has ever bothered me about Bautista is how he argues balls and strikes. You will never win that argument. Total waste of time.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It's not just Canada that loves Bautista, he has been widely regarded as one of the best in the game in the U.S. for the last 3 seasons as well.

I personally don't think there needs to be soul searching for why the team sucks.

It's called pitching.

Switch Cano and Bautista and Seattle is probably still just as good because they have this guy named Felix, this other guy named Hisashi, plus this other guy named Chris Young.

All three have better stats then any one pitcher on the Blue Jays.

Bautista had a slightly down season this year with his bat, injuries have hurt him, but the issues with the Bluejays begin and end with pitching.

Seattle has had Felix forever, Iwakuma for three years, and Chris Young is a guy with an 84mph fastball.

Why are the Blue Jays pitchers so bad? Why has the Toronto starting staff become a graveyard for otherwise successful pitchers? Could it possibly be the toxic atmosphere surrounding the team?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by evman150

Seattle has had Felix forever, Iwakuma for three years, and Chris Young is a guy with an 84mph fastball.

Why are the Blue Jays pitchers so bad? Why has the Toronto starting staff become a graveyard for otherwise successful pitchers? Could it possibly be the toxic atmosphere surrounding the team?

So Cano makes the Seattle pitchers better, and Bautista makes the Toronto one's worse...makes sense.

It's not that hard to see that Dickey just wasn't suited for the AL, especially the AL East where the murders row of long ball hitters can jump all over any knuckleballs left hanging and hit them for HR's.

Behurle was almost too successful early on because I think the innings caught up to him this year.

Morrow, Hutch, Happ, etc are either injury prone, unproven, or just not that good. If not for Stroman this team would look even worse this season.

But you are right, the Seattle pitchers (and defense) aren't doing anything special this year, it was all the addition of Cano that made them better.

http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/08/19/mar...ng-and-defense



You can probably add defense to the reasons the Blue Jays struggle, especially in the in-field but I would say injuries have had a lot to do with that too.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

So Cano makes the Seattle pitchers better, and Bautista makes the Toronto one's worse...makes sense.

It's not that hard to see that Dickey just wasn't suited for the AL, especially the AL East where the murders row of long ball hitters can jump all over any knuckleballs left hanging and hit them for HR's.

Behurle was almost too successful early on because I think the innings caught up to him this year.

Morrow, Hutch, Happ, etc are either injury prone, unproven, or just not that good. If not for Stroman this team would look even worse this season.

But you are right, the Seattle pitchers (and defense) aren't doing anything special this year, it was all the addition of Cano that made them better.

http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/08/19/mar...ng-and-defense



You can probably add defense to the reasons the Blue Jays struggle, especially in the in-field but I would say injuries have had a lot to do with that too.

It's amazing what good chemistry, good players, and some momentum can do for a team.

If you think a position player (Cano) can't have any effect on a pitching staff, you're out to lunch.

By the way, Jose is doing the defense no favours with his -1.4 dWAR this year, which accounts for almost half the entire team's dWAR of -3.1.