New poll: Harper - Conservatives headed for third place next election?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Slava

Surely a good fiscal conservative can acknowledge that was a better situation than where we find ourselves today, nearly 6 full years after the recession.

I know you're being facetious, but let's not kid ourselves that most "conservatives" in Alberta are fiscal conservatives. Most could not care less about economics or fiscal conservatism, and rather are in the political discussion to fight for "their team" or bull#### social conservative "family values" garbage.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The Chretien/Martin Liberal governments from 1993-2006 balanced the budged, started paying down the national debt, lowered taxes, and were in power during a time in which Canada's economy grew (although I'm hesitant to give them 100% of the credit for that, but at least they didn't waste their good fortune of being in power during an extended bull market).

George W was apparently an economic genius during that time period as well.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I know you're being facetious, but let's not kid ourselves that most "conservatives" in Alberta are fiscal conservatives.

I'm really not being facetious though. For some reason the fiscal conservatives (at least on this board) seem to have a hard time acknowledging that the Liberals were fiscal conservatives from 1993-2005. They're might have been other misgivings that they had, and thats fine, but particularly in comparison to the Harper government, they were much more fiscally conservative.

[RedHot25]

So, we give a pass to one side but not the other ? Works for me...

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

George W was apparently an economic genius during that time period as well.

i don't get it, his economic record is dismal.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It's almost as if they didn't have to weather a massive global economic recession or anything...

Chretien's Liberals were first elected to office towards the tail end of the early 1990s recession. They were also in power during the early 2000s recession, although Canada's economy emerged from that relatively unscathed (I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to judge if the Liberal government deserves any credit for that).

To be fair, neither of the recessions the Liberals faced were nearly as bad as the global economic collapse of 2008. I don't fault The Harper Government at all for returning to deficit spending in light of the massive recession, but nobody could rightly call them model fiscal stewards either. Even ignoring the effects of the recession, they've made several very questionable decisions that have been soundly criticized by economists.

[GP_Matt]

What about an option for people who would vote for the Conservatives if they had a new leader who inspired me?

I don't have anything against Harper, but I think he has been in power far too long. If he leaves soon I think the history books will look fondly on his tenure, but much longer and his errors become more and more prominent.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

George W was apparently an economic genius during that time period as well.

Bill Clinton, but how many right-wingers can we argue against in one thread?

[starseed]

The liberals were on track to pay off the national debt by the 20s. I doubt the conservatives would have had a long term plan involving large surpluses during the boom. They are too ideologically obsessed with cutting taxes.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

George W was apparently an economic genius during that time period as well.

By doing the exact opposite of Canada's Liberals?

Bush inherited a budget surplus from the Clinton administration and promptly squandered it, even before 9/11 and the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. Chretien and Martin inherited a massive deficit from Mulroney (and Trudeau before him) and turned it into a surplus within a few years.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The Chretien/Martin Liberal governments from 1993-2006 balanced the budged, started paying down the national debt, lowered taxes, and were in power during a time in which Canada's economy grew (although I'm hesitant to give them 100% of the credit for that, but at least they didn't waste their good fortune of being in power during an extended bull market).

I wish the current Liberal party resembled the Chretien/Martin Liberals a bit more, but they seem to be much closer to historical NDP positions.

I don't think the Conservatives deserve another term but they likely will receive my vote anyways. Trudeau losing the election badly might be the best thing to happen for Canada.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It's almost as if they didn't have to weather a massive global economic recession or anything...

We shouldn't forget that the Liberals were also responsible for blocking a lot of the banking rule changes that got other countries in trouble. At the time the banks said they were not able to keep up with banks from other countries that implemented the rules.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm really not being facetious though. For some reason the fiscal conservatives (at least on this board) seem to have a hard time acknowledging that the Liberals were fiscal conservatives from 1993-2005. They're might have been other misgivings that they had, and thats fine, but particularly in comparison to the Harper government, they were much more fiscally conservative.

This bolded term is such a horrible named term. Fiscally conservative seemingly implies being good fiscally, but it really isn't. Fiscal conservatism is an ideology of low taxes, bare bones government spending and little to no social welfare. But that doesn't necessarily equate to being good fiscally. The Liberals of 93-05 were fiscally responsible, which is different and is more concerned with efficient use of resources and properly funding major capital projects (i.e. not through excessive debt spending).

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

I don't think the Conservatives deserve another term but they likely will receive my vote anyways.

Gotta support your team.

[FlamesAddiction]

It is difficult to judge Harper and his government because there were different economic climates at the time, of which a Prime Minister essentially has to react to and can't really control per se. From what I recall, much of the economic policies in place were from the Martin/Chretien era. Harper didn't want to spend on stimulus until the Liberals and NDP started rattling their sabres (so some of the reactions of the government were opposition initiated and not preferred by Harper).

I think the main point here is that the Liberals did well, at least economically during their last run. The Conservatives don't necessarily need to be attacked... the Liberals look good in that one facet on their own merit. There are other completely valid reason to be disappointed with their previous governments though.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

I wish the current Liberal party resembled the Chretien/Martin Liberals a bit more, but they seem to be much closer to historical NDP positions.

I'm not sure what the Liberals resemble at the moment, because their current official position is fuzzy at best, and most of what people "know" about the party is from CPC attack ads.

[nik-]

I really do wish the Liberals had a different leader. I feel they're going to squander a real opportunity to gain voters outside of their base who love Trudeau.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

i don't get it, his economic record is dismal.

The US economy was at its strongest

[octothorp]

Very interesting numbers. I still would expect a solid bump for the Conservatives due to their campaign-running/GotV experience, but trailing by nearly 20 points in Ontario would be an unwinnable position. Even during their minority years, they were winning or only slightly losing Ontario.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

I really do wish the Liberals had a different leader. I feel they're going to squander a real opportunity to gain voters outside of their base who love Trudeau.

I think this might be an Alberta-centric viewpoint.

Outside of Alberta, Canada loves Trudeau.

As a young, non-curmudgeonly populist, and a voting population shifting to a younger demographic, I don't see what's so negative about the guy (other than being too sexy).

People in BC seem to like him.