ISIS militants attack and take over Iraqi northern city of Mosul

[Shnabdabber]

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/isis...nt-white-house

Scary stuff. May be time to dig in deep boys.

[HOWITZER]

Originally Posted by Ark2

This is not true. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. perpetrated some of the worst atrocities of human history, and it had nothing to do with Religion. What we are seeing right now runs far deeper than religion.

Come on man. The freaking holocaust! Jewish people!

And the USSR persecuted christians all throughout the the 20th century.

Basic google fact checking man!

[nik-]

Well, it's a good thing I'm going to southern Spain this year ... get to visit before ISIS moves in and the neighbourhood goes to crap.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Sorry if I am re-treading over familiar ground. Could you please point me in the direction where this was already discussed?

in many of the Christianity based threads posted on this board. This is one opinion and is likely close to correct.
http://freethoughtnation.com/were-st...-pot-atheists/

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=87e_1407693934

Isis supporters are gathering steam in Europe, this demonstration was from the Netherlands.

Of course this gets a far right response, ingrained in nationalism and a fear of immigration. Don't know if I can blame them or not.

Well if Nazi's hold a demonstration in a Moslem neighbourhood and don't receive some kind of resistance, I'd be surprised and labelling them ISIS supporters because they were provoked is over the top.

Really what kind of news do you follow?

[Shnabdabber]

Wrong vid one sec. Phone/first world problems.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

You can't argue that wars of religion haven't killed millions, both in the far past, IE: Crusades and closer to the present.

Why can't I? I think this notion that if you were to remove religion from the Middle East, everything would be fine. There has been more than enough conflict outside of religion that should disprove this.

[Shnabdabber]

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=e60_1407732039

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=09c_1407765772

Trying to find the vid where Isis protesters are pushed back by police.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Cheese

in many of the Christianity based threads posted on this board. This is one opinion and is likely close to correct.
http://freethoughtnation.com/were-st...-pot-atheists/

Sorry, but I have no idea what this proves. I'm not saying that these leaders were atheists, I am saying that the atrocities weren't carried out in the name of religion. IE, removing religion from the equation wouldn't have changed the outcome. I'm not trying to argue that atheists are just as bad as the religious, because historically, there have been far more religious people than atheists.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=e60_1407732039

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=09c_1407765772

Trying to find the vid where Isis protesters are pushed back by police.

Well that is crazy.

[FlamesAddiction]

I would argue that most religious wars have underlying causes and motives that are more secular based. Even the Crusades were more about controlling resources and land than religion (even if religion was the motivation for people joining). The people actually initiating the Crusades were more about the loot than anything else.

It's no different than today how nations choose altruistic reasons for war, but they almost always come back to human nature. Religion is a great way to motivate people to obey and not expect something materialistic in return, but I rarely see it as the primary motivator at the top of the pyramid.... although with ISIS, it very well could be.

[Itse]

There are a few of reasons why I'm reluctant to label the ISIS as "evil".

First off, it's a generalization. There are obviously really messed up people in the ISIS army, but generally the true believers in any system are a minority. The rhetoric seems mostly pretty vague, which makes it hard to know how serious they are in their religious furor. The PR guy in the Vice video seemed to be holding back laugher as he was reading the propaganda.

Second, Iraq and Syria are in a civil war. That's always a really messy business. What I've seen from ISIS is unfortunately all too typical of civil wars.

Third, many civilized countries have been born out of uncivilized bloodshed, and many fathers of nations in history have been really problematic to say the least.

It also seems to me that the ISIS to some extent is be stirring up fear on purpose. If that is in fact the case, then pretty much everybody in this conflict wants to make them look scary, which in turn means that reliable facts will be really hard to come by.


Note that none of that is meant as a defense or an excuse for any of the atrocities that the ISIS has committed, it's just the reason why I personally will hold back making decisive judgement calls about how "evil" they are unless I really need to make one.

[nik-]

Massacring dozens of unarmed men at a time, cutting off their heads and putting them on fence posts in town is evil. If you can't admit that that is evil, then it's likely you think nothing is evil.

Seriously .. wtf?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by smoothpops

Did anyone else catch the "ask me anything" done by the Kurd who was in the region, today? it was fascinating, and gave me (slight) optimism that stability can be achieved in (northern) Iraq.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment..._half_an_hour/

This is a good read, which why I quoted it to give it more visibility. Thanks.

Btw, Genghis Khan is an interesting combination of things.

On one hand his strategies... There are not a lot of words for it. Gruesome.

On the other hand, he was well known to have religiously and ethnically tolerant as well as meritocratic policies. He is also said to have attempted to create an empire where "a single woman could walk safely from one end of the empire to the other with a sack of gold in his hand". (This quote is neither exact or necessarily true, but it's not out of line with his policies either.)

[Itse]

Originally Posted by nik-

Massacring dozens of unarmed men at a time, cutting off their heads and putting them on fence posts in town is evil. If you can't admit that that is evil, then it's likely you think nothing is evil.

Seriously .. wtf?

Meh. I read history. In the list of "things people do in wars", that's pretty stock. Desecrating enemy bodies, really common. Putting enemy bodies on display, really common. Mass executions, yeah, hard to find a conflict where this doesn't happen.

I also don't see much of a moral distinction between shooting a bunch of people and bombing a bunch of people to death for example. By your standards, the US drone war is extreme evil, which by your logic would make the whole US military evil and as an extention the US an evil nation. Which I don't think is fair at all, much as I criticize them.

[nik-]

Just because it happens and has happened before, doesn't mean it's not evil. Your second assumption is just laughable, but actually kind of sad. I'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish there.

The existence of an act in previous wars doesn't render the act "not evil".

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Why can't I? I think this notion that if you were to remove religion from the Middle East, everything would be fine. There has been more than enough conflict outside of religion that should disprove this.

Religion provides yet another "difference" between the sides in the conflict. The side will use anything they can to make themselve seem different from each other. If we took away religion, one of the biggest differentiators, then we might be a step closer to peace.

Trust me I have seen first hand how religion is used to justify all sorts of nastiness.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/isis...nt-white-house

Scary stuff. May be time to dig in deep boys.

All out war would deal a serious blow to the ISIS and make them go away for the time being. Might give Iraq/Syria enough time to figure something out.

NATO could easily take care of the problem if they wanted too.

Long-term maybe not so much. Can't beat stupid.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Itse

Meh. I read history. In the list of "things people do in wars", that's pretty stock. Desecrating enemy bodies, really common. Putting enemy bodies on display, really common. Mass executions, yeah, hard to find a conflict where this doesn't happen.

I also don't see much of a moral distinction between shooting a bunch of people and bombing a bunch of people to death for example. By your standards, the US drone war is extreme evil, which by your logic would make the whole US military evil and as an extention the US an evil nation. Which I don't think is fair at all, much as I criticize them.

Really? Do tell how the leaders of ISIS don't fully believe all the &^%$ they keep pushing as propaganda?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Religion provides yet another "difference" between the sides in the conflict. The side will use anything they can to make themselve seem different from each other. If we took away religion, one of the biggest differentiators, then we might be a step closer to peace.

Trust me I have seen first hand how religion is used to justify all sorts of nastiness.

And allow me to expand, if human kind knew there was no afterlife, no heaven and no 72 virgins they might just try to be nicer and live longer.

Religion makes people do very stupid things.