Neat, but that doesn't answer the question. What's your view of their outcome after Hamas surrenders and disarms?
If Hamas surrendered unconditionally and the attacks stopped, at the very least, Israel would lose their casus beli and with it, all international support/tolerance for further military actions and settlements. In fact, the only way that Hamas and subsequently the Palestinians can "win" is if they do in fact surrender. Without international support, they are doomed.
It's true that there is a terrible humanitarian situation among the civilian population, but until they (the leaders) choose to be a direct partner in peace, they can't claim victim status.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
If Hamas surrendered unconditionally and the attacks stopped, at the very least, Israel would lose their casus beli and with it, all international support/tolerance for further military actions and settlements. In fact, the only way that Hamas and subsequently the Palestinians can "win" is if they do in fact surrender. Without international support, they are doomed.
It's true that there is a terrible humanitarian situation among the civilian population, but until they (the leaders) choose to be a direct partner in peace, they can't claim victim status.
The only support that Israel really has at this point for this operation is the unconditional kind. People that will never change their mind that Israel should be able to do whatever it wants are pretty much all that's left.
That support will never go away, no matter what. I don't see much other support for them.
Tolerance is irrelevant. What is the international community going to do? A stern warning at the General Assembly?
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Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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The tunnels were discovered years before Israel invaded Gaza. Years.
If Hamas surrenders, what then becomes of he Palestinian people?
The "Palestinian People" were a myth, invented by the British. They have subsequently, however, been quite powerfully created by conflict.
The endgame should be a strongly legally protected and recognized Palestinian minority living within the borders of the nation of Israel.
However, people have become enamoured with the idea of ethnic self-determination, as though ethnicity is important at all, so, the vastly more-likely endgame is that one of the surrounding Arab states - I'm thinking probably this new "ISIS" state which we're seeing created - will become seriously de-stabilized due to internal and external pressures, a significant, or series of significant attacks, will be launched against Israel as a convenient scapegoat, Israel will respond with the asymmetrical force they are capable of applying, the conflict will spill into the West Bank and Gaza, Israel will flatten - or nearly flatten - "Palestine" and the area will be subsequently settled by Israelis and the Palestinians will experience a similar end to the Bashanites and Heshbonites of Deuteronomy 3:3-6
I'd like to point out, neither side in this conflict can be said to be morally wrong. This is pretty common, and usually works out in favour of the side which has the best artillery.
So let me get you correct. Only one side has murdered civilians?
I can answer questions with questions too. But before I wait for your answer, one side has murdered far more civilians. Far more kids even.
How you feel you are right in this talking point is baffling at the least.
One side has killed civilians as their main goal in this conflict for generations. Their government's main goal is the eradication of an entire nation.
Israel is guilty of killing civilians within a sphere of war where their opposition refuses to protect their own citizens. However to equate that to terrorism is simply immoral.
Walking onto a bus or pizza parlor full of innocent people in a time of peace (meaning NON-WAR/TRUCE/NEGOTATION) period and killing them indiscriminately will never be the same as civilian deaths during a war period.
I believe the attempt to equate Hamas, a known and globally identified Terrorist entity whose stated goal is destruction of an entire nation/race, to a modern liberal democracy engaged in warfare, is rather disgusting. Does this excuse the atrocities being committed? Of course not. But the entire cycle definitely is brought about by the actions of these terrorists. Those that excuse terrorism as justified in the name of land disputes merely perpetuate the further cycle of violence.
If Hamas surrendered unconditionally and the attacks stopped, at the very least, Israel would lose their casus beli and with it, all international support/tolerance for further military actions and settlements. In fact, the only way that Hamas and subsequently the Palestinians can "win" is if they do in fact surrender. Without international support, they are doomed.
It's true that there is a terrible humanitarian situation among the civilian population, but until they (the leaders) choose to be a direct partner in peace, they can't claim victim status.
I agree that this sounds like a good first step, and I'm theoretically in favour of it.
My concern is that, in reality, it falls apart. Let's just say that, overnight, each and every "terrorist" in Gaza / West Bank disappears, leaving only the peaceful people. The following problems will still remain:
- Settlement activity will not stop. It has not, on the net, stopped for as long as I can remember. It is supported by the Israeli government and supported by the US. Therefore, the peaceful Palestinians will be helpless.
- The occupation will not stop. In the spirit of deterrence and prevention, the embargo of land, sea and air will continue.
Those above two items are vital for any independent nation.. the right to keep the land that you have, and the right to freely enter and exit your nation. In a "peaceful" environment, the Palestinians will be left to international pity and opinion to hope to stop either situation*. But with the US firmly behind both activities, it's not going to stop.
So then what do you do?
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* The Palestinians barely get any sympathy in the US even with 100s and 1000s dying. So why would anyone in the US government care if no Palestinians are dying but they're "only" subjected to increasing settlement activity and continued occupation, which will not be shown on any US television?
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They were not "occupying the area". The IDF could turn Gaza into a parking lot in an afternoon. It is because of their concern for civilian casualties that they have been ineffective in defeating Hamas.
This is such a hilarious argument. No, they can't turn Gaza into a parking lot. I mean yes militarily they could but that's not how nations work. You aren't allowed to just nuke a city without serious consequences. If Israel knew they'd face no consequences they'd wipe out Gaza in minutes so please stop with these ridiculous arguments.
One side has killed civilians as their main goal in this conflict for generations. Their government's main goal is the eradication of an entire nation.
Israel is guilty of killing civilians within a sphere of war where their opposition refuses to protect their own citizens. However to equate that to terrorism is simply immoral.
Walking onto a bus or pizza parlor full of innocent people in a time of peace (meaning NON-WAR/TRUCE/NEGOTATION) period and killing them indiscriminately will never be the same as civilian deaths during a war period.
I believe the attempt to equate Hamas, a known and globally identified Terrorist entity whose stated goal is destruction of an entire nation/race, to a modern liberal democracy engaged in warfare, is rather disgusting. Does this excuse the atrocities being committed? Of course not. But the entire cycle definitely is brought about by the actions of these terrorists. Those that excuse terrorism as justified in the name of land disputes merely perpetuate the further cycle of violence.
Ah, language. They key to life.
Who said Hamas refuses to protect their citizens? Do you think they refuse to have the same weapons that Israel does? That they refuse weapons aid from the US?
Also note that you said both sides commit atrocities. Your words. So then what is the value of a "liberal democracy" that commits atrocities?
Language is so important, and can do a great deal to reveal what we truly know, what we feel, and what our biases are.
I do not believe that. When I say Hamas is defeated I mean all of the terrorist cells within Gaza. However long it takes. Hopefully then a moderate unified government can sit down for serious peace talks with Israel. Maybe this will be the war that finally leads to a viable peaceful two state solution.
You can't be serious. With every civilian death, Israel is creating a new generation of combatants.
An op-ed piece published in the Times of Israel attempted to justify genocide (!!!!) against the Palestinian people. It's since been removed for very obvious reasons, but of course you can never truly delete something from the Internet.
Original text of the article (spoilered for length):
Spoiler!
Quote:
Judging by the numbers of casualties on both sides in this almost one-month old war one
would be led to the conclusion that Israel has resorted to disproportionate means in fighting
a far less- capable enemy. That is as far as what meets the eye. But, it’s now obvious that
the US and the UN are completely out of touch with the nature of this foe and are therefore not
qualified to dictate or enforce the rules of this war – because when it comes to terror there is
much more than meets the eye.
I wasn’t aware of this, but it seems that the nature of warfare has undergone a major shift over the
years. Where wars were usually waged to defeat the opposing side, today it seems – and judging
by the number of foul calls it would indicate – that today’s wars are fought to a draw. I mean,
whoever heard of a timeout in war? An NBA Basketball game allows six timeouts for each team
during the course of a game, but last I checked this is a war! We are at war with an enemy whose
charter calls for the annihilation of our people. Nothing, then, can be considered disproportionate
when we are fighting for our very right to live.
The sad reality is that Israel gets it, but its hands are being tied by world leaders who over the past
six years have insisted they are such good friends with the Jewish state, that they know more
regarding its interests than even they do. But there’s going to have to come a time where Israel
feels threatened enough where it has no other choice but to defy international warnings – because
this is life or death.
Most of the reports coming from Gazan officials and leaders since the start of this operation have
been either largely exaggerated or patently false. The truth is, it’s not their fault, falsehood and
deceit is part of the very fabric of who they are and that will never change. Still however, despite
their propensity to lie, when your enemy tells you that they are bent on your destruction you believe
them. Similarly, when Khaled Meshal declares that no physical damage to Gaza will dampen their
morale or weaken their resolve – they have to be believed. Our sage Gedalia the son of Achikam
was given intelligence that Yishmael Ben Nesanyah was plotting to kill him. However, in his piety or
rather naiveté Gedalia dismissed the report as a random act of gossip and paid no attention to it.
To this day, the day following Rosh Hashana is commemorated as a fast day in the memory of
Gedalia who was killed in cold blood on the second day of Rosh Hashana during the meal. They
say the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistakes over and over. History is there to
teach us lessons and the lesson here is that when your enemy swears to destroy you – you take
him seriously.
Hamas has stated forthrightly that it idealizes death as much as Israel celebrates life. What other
way then is there to deal with an enemy of this nature other than obliterate them completely?
News anchors such as those from CNN, BBC and Al-Jazeera have not missed an opportunity to
point out the majority of innocent civilians who have lost their lives as a result of this war. But
anyone who lives with rocket launchers installed or terror tunnels burrowed in or around the vicinity
of their home cannot be considered an innocent civilian. If you’ll counter, that Hamas has been
seen abusing civilians who have attempted to leave their homes in response to Israeli warnings to
leave – well then, your beginning to come to terms with the nature of this enemy which should
automatically cause the rules of standard warfare to be suspended.
Everyone agrees that Israel has the right to defend itself as well as the right to exercise that right.
Secretary General Ban Ki Moon has declared it, Obama and Kerry have clearly stated that no one
could be expected to sit idle as thousands of rockets rain down on the heads of its citizens,
placing them in clear and present danger. It seems then that the only point of contention is
regarding the measure of punishment meted out in this situation.
I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable
quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every
government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts
determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then
permissible to achieve those responsible goals?
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An op-ed piece published in the Times of Israel attempted to justify genocide (!!!!) against the Palestinian people. It's since been removed for very obvious reasons, but of course you can never truly delete something from the Internet.
Eye opening article about the prevalence of racism in Israel. It is not necessarily the peace wanting democracy that some here want to paint it as. Many Israeli's (including high ranking politicians) seem to be out for blood. Maybe that's what the latest attacks are reflective of.
Nationalistic Israelis have also turned on Israelis who disagree with them. Photographs have even emerged of pro-war protestors dressed in t-shirts with “Good Night Left Side” prints, a slogan usually used by European neo-Nazis. Violence from these groups has reached unprecedented levels. Last week in Haifa, a city usually presented as a model of liberal co-existence, an anti-war rally was attacked by 700 people carrying weapons.
Quote:
What is going on? For anyone familiar with Israeli politics, the answer should be obvious. In the past month alone the stream of racism coming from politicians and religious authorities has been relentless. Take Avigdor Lieberman, the Foreign Minister, who called on Israelis to boycott Palestinians who don't support the war. Or take Ayelet Shaked, the Jewish Home party politician and member of the Knesset (Israel's national legislature) who recently called for the murder of Palestinian mothers. “They should follow their sons,” she said. “Nothing would be more just.”
Quote:
“Both governments under Netanyahu have been responsible for inciting racism,” Svirsky said. “They’ve put in place a long list of anti-equality and anti-Palestinian legislation in all areas of life. That’s why it’s become normal in political discourse to express extreme ideas toward Palestinians. The obsession with a state only for Jews has brought Israeli society into a racist abyss.”
Quote:
For those who live in Israel and do not support the war or the right-wing government, it is becoming more difficult to voice an opinion, and some people are weighing their options. “Two nights ago there was a big protest in Tel Aviv,” Sheen said. “A long-time leftist was holding up a sign that said ‘flee while you can.’ In conversations I’ve had with hardcore activists, everyone has said they are preparing an escape plan. For people who have children or want to have children, this is no place to raise them.”
So basically, anyone who thinks this is a straight up "good guy" (Israel) vs "bad guy" (Hamas) situation is clearly oversimplifying the matter and can't see that the rise of extremism can happen on either side, and there's no shortage of it in Israel. I highly encourage reading the full article.
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A few weeks after crashing head-first into the boards (denting his helmet and being unable to move for a little while) following a hit from behind by Bob Errey, the Calgary Flames player explains:
"I was like Christ, lying on my back, with my arms outstretched, crucified"
-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
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One side has killed civilians as their main goal in this conflict for generations. Their government's main goal is the eradication of an entire nation.
Israel is guilty of killing civilians within a sphere of war where their opposition refuses to protect their own citizens. However to equate that to terrorism is simply immoral.
Walking onto a bus or pizza parlor full of innocent people in a time of peace (meaning NON-WAR/TRUCE/NEGOTATION) period and killing them indiscriminately will never be the same as civilian deaths during a war period.
I believe the attempt to equate Hamas, a known and globally identified Terrorist entity whose stated goal is destruction of an entire nation/race, to a modern liberal democracy engaged in warfare, is rather disgusting. Does this excuse the atrocities being committed? Of course not. But the entire cycle definitely is brought about by the actions of these terrorists. Those that excuse terrorism as justified in the name of land disputes merely perpetuate the further cycle of violence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.
I agree that this sounds like a good first step, and I'm theoretically in favour of it.
My concern is that, in reality, it falls apart. Let's just say that, overnight, each and every "terrorist" in Gaza / West Bank disappears, leaving only the peaceful people. The following problems will still remain:
- Settlement activity will not stop. It has not, on the net, stopped for as long as I can remember. It is supported by the Israeli government and supported by the US. Therefore, the peaceful Palestinians will be helpless.
- The occupation will not stop. In the spirit of deterrence and prevention, the embargo of land, sea and air will continue.
Those above two items are vital for any independent nation.. the right to keep the land that you have, and the right to freely enter and exit your nation. In a "peaceful" environment, the Palestinians will be left to international pity and opinion to hope to stop either situation*. But with the US firmly behind both activities, it's not going to stop.
So then what do you do?
---
* The Palestinians barely get any sympathy in the US even with 100s and 1000s dying. So why would anyone in the US government care if no Palestinians are dying but they're "only" subjected to increasing settlement activity and continued occupation, which will not be shown on any US television?
What he (FF PHD) said. I agree fully. You're (eoj) framing the argument how you want to. The Palestinians don't have an Iron Dome to protect their citizens. They are crammed in a far more dense area. And the last few bombings from Israel show that yes, they are in fact guilty of targeting civilians. There was a UN worker on CBC last morn saying there were no Hamas or weapons in the last UN school bombed and there were no human shields.
You're either willfully wrong to try and protect your point, or very misinformed.
