Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Like I said before, it's amazing how Israel's actions are justified because it's a war, but the Palestinians are evil for launching small rockets even though they're under occupation and see their land being illegally settled.

I've staid away from this thread for a while, but seeing comments like this continuously online is what drives me kind of crazy.

People need to get a historical sense of what "Palestine" is and it what is never was. It was never a country, EVER, in the history of mankind. No people called the "Palestinians" ever existed before in recorded history. They are an amalgamation of Arab tribes that lived and worked the land now known as modern Israel and West Bank/Gaza Strip, land which was mostly owned by rich landowners in Damascus and elsewhere in Arab capitals. They sold that land to migratory Jews that were expelled from Europe and throughout the Arab world in the early 20th century, and sold at a premium to what the land was actually worth (sometimes up to 20x it's actual value).

The Arab farmers that had the land sold from under their feet by other Arabs were then expelled from the land by their new ACTUAL owners, the immigrant Jews. The partition plan even took into account Jewish land ownership when deciding on how to split up the Mandate, but the Arab population said no to every plan and decided to engage in war. What followed through several Israeli victories is what you see now. Israel even gave back land acquired via war victories over Egypt and Jordan as part of the peace accords with those countries.

This is a very simplistic summary, but the people who keep saying that the entire land of Israel belongs to these so-called Palestinians who were invented as a political tool need to understand that the land was (in most cases) not even theirs to begin with (they just worked it and got to live on it in exchange). Also keep in mind that the Palestinians have been in physical conflict with the Jordanian government for the same amount of time as against Israel. The Egyptians want nothing to do with them either. Why, you might ask? They don't recognize any of their claims and they in fact tried to take over Jordan to make it their homeland. Check into it...

Yes, lots of bad stuff has happened in the last 70 years, and Israeli leadership has made lots of mistakes too. To say otherwise is definitely foolish.
Yes, I believe that Israel should give all the land back and do land swaps that make sense for both parties to make a two-state solution work for everyone. Yes, the settlements are a horrible thing and I hate them. They have done nothing but cause negative political outcomes in Israel and abroad and they don't serve any real purpose.

But let us look at one simple fact: Which side of this horrendous historical conflict has managed to make peace with any one of it's enemies? Palestinians? NO, they can't even make peace with themselves. They want all of the "occupied territories" back, i.e. All of Israel. They don't consider "Palestine" to be pre-1967 border areas. They consider the whole thing to be theirs and they won't stop until they get it. You don't believe me? Check with someone who actually claims to be a "Palestinian" and then tell me what you found out.

I've spent quite a bit of time in that area of the world and there's a reason why there is no two-state solution.


/rant


Sorry, but I can't keep ignoring this massive elephant in the room when people mention the occupied territories.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I've staid away from this thread for a while, but seeing comments like this continuously online is what drives me kind of crazy.

People need to get a historical sense of what "Palestine" is and it what is never was. It was never a country, EVER, in the history of mankind. No people called the "Palestinians" ever existed before in recorded history. They are an amalgamation of Arab tribes that lived and worked the land now known as modern Israel and West Bank/Gaza Strip, land which was mostly owned by rich landowners in Damascus and elsewhere in Arab capitals. They sold that land to migratory Jews that were expelled from Europe and throughout the Arab world in the early 20th century, and sold at a premium to what the land was actually worth (sometimes up to 20x it's actual value).

The Arab farmers that had the land sold from under their feet by other Arabs were then expelled from the land by their new ACTUAL owners, the immigrant Jews. The partition plan even took into account Jewish land ownership when deciding on how to split up the Mandate, but the Arab population said no to every plan and decided to engage in war. What followed through several Israeli victories is what you see now. Israel even gave back land acquired via war victories over Egypt and Jordan as part of the peace accords with those countries.

This is a very simplistic summary, but the people who keep saying that the entire land of Israel belongs to these so-called Palestinians who were invented as a political tool need to understand that the land was (in most cases) not even theirs to begin with (they just worked it and got to live on it in exchange). Also keep in mind that the Palestinians have been in physical conflict with the Jordanian government for the same amount of time as against Israel. The Egyptians want nothing to do with them either. Why, you might ask? They don't recognize any of their claims and they in fact tried to take over Jordan to make it their homeland. Check into it...

Yes, lots of bad stuff has happened in the last 70 years, and Israeli leadership has made lots of mistakes too. To say otherwise is definitely foolish.
Yes, I believe that Israel should give all the land back and do land swaps that make sense for both parties to make a two-state solution work for everyone. Yes, the settlements are a horrible thing and I hate them. They have done nothing but cause negative political outcomes in Israel and abroad and they don't serve any real purpose.

But let us look at one simple fact: Which side of this horrendous historical conflict has managed to make peace with any one of it's enemies? Palestinians? NO, they can't even make peace with themselves. They want all of the "occupied territories" back, i.e. All of Israel. They don't consider "Palestine" to be pre-1967 border areas. They consider the whole thing to be theirs and they won't stop until they get it. You don't believe me? Check with someone who actually claims to be a "Palestinian" and then tell me what you found out.

I've spent quite a bit of time in that area of the world and there's a reason why there is no two-state solution.


/rant


Sorry, but I can't keep ignoring this massive elephant in the room when people mention the occupied territories.

I brought this up the last time the ridiculous point was made that Palestine was never a country. It doesn't matter, do you know how many countries never existed that came into being when the British empire dissolved? The word "Pakistan" was not a word until the 1930's. Which group as a majority had lived in the region prior to the creation of Israel for centuries, the Arabs or the Jews?

And no, the majority of Palestinians do not today consider all of Israel as Palestine. The PA has accepted the '67 borders, even Hamas has since 2009. You even state that the settlements are horrible, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Envitro

People need to get a historical sense of what "Palestine" is and it what is never was. It was never a country, EVER, in the history of mankind. No people called the "Palestinians" ever existed before in recorded history. They are an amalgamation of Arab tribes that lived and worked the land now known as modern Israel and West Bank/Gaza Strip, land which was mostly owned by rich landowners in Damascus and elsewhere in Arab capitals.

Honestly I've never understood this line of reasoning. Does it matter what we call them? They're people indigenous to the area, and as with all people, deserve self-determination. That it was never a named "country" doesn't negate their existence. If readers think this is a valid argument, then note that it could also rationalize the disenfranchisement of Native Americans. Is that just? Or would we, as a civilization, have preferred to not use such irrelevant measures to decimate and marginalize distinct cultures?

I'm for respecting human dignity, even if a political structure doesn't deem it necessary or appropriate to allow you to trademark the land that you live on. We should do our best to treat everyone with dignity, regardless of provenance.

[_Q_]

Re: Envitro's post

Oh man there's so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to start.

This is all true if you believe the Zionists narrative of "a land without people for a people without land". But there's a reason why the Palestinians have a unique culture, food, dialect, traditional clothing, etc. that can only be developed over centuries or millenia.

But yeah let's pretend that people don't have a right to self determination until they're officially given a country by the UN. By that definition, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and yes even the Israelis had no legitimate claim to any land either. Hey all you western Canadians, you guys never technically had an independent country ever in history, let's ship you all off to Ontario and give all of BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba to some other group. I hear the Mormons or Scientologists are looking for an independent state.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I brought this up the last time the ridiculous point was made that Palestine was never a country. It doesn't matter, do you know how many countries never existed that came into being when the British empire dissolved? The word "Pakistan" was not a word until the 1930's. Which group as a majority had lived in the region prior to the creation of Israel for centuries, the Arabs or the Jews?

And no, the majority of Palestinians do not today consider all of Israel as Palestine. The PA has accepted the '67 borders, even Hamas has since 2009. You even state that the settlements are horrible, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Well to be fair, a lot of Arab Israelis that I've met refer to themselves as Palestinians. My family, technically is from what is today Israel, but I also refer to myself as Palestinian-canadian. It doesn't mean that we can't accept that Israel is a Jewish majority state that's separate from Palestine.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

All the borders in the Middle East are remnants of WW1 era colonialism...they were often drawn in such a way as to divide peoples to make them easier to govern.

Thanks for nothing Europe and Ottoman Empire.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

^^ Oh man there's so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to start.

This is all true if you believe the Zionists narrative of "a land without people for a people without land". But there's a reason why the Palestinians have a unique culture, food, dialect, traditional clothing, etc. that can only be developed over centuries or millenia.

But yeah let's pretend that people don't have a right to self determination until they're officially given a country by the UN. By that definition, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and yes even the Israelis had no legitimate claim to any land either. Hey all you western Canadians, you guys never technically had an independent country ever in history, let's ship you all off to Ontario and give all of BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba to some other group. I hear the Mormons or Scientologists are looking for an independent state.

Whoa, slow down. I might be reading it wrong, but I think he's using that reasoning to give legitimacy to the Arab people, not the Jewish people as you seem to think he's saying. Or at least, that the argument could be made that even though some say Palestine was never technically a country, it shouldn't matter, because the people still lived there before, even if it wasn't officially recognized. Much like the native peoples here.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Whoa, slow down. I might be reading it wrong, but I think he's using that reasoning to give legitimacy to the Arab people, not the Jewish people as you seem to think he's saying. Or at least, that the argument could be made that even though some say Palestine was never technically a country, it shouldn't matter, because the people still lived there before, even if it wasn't officially recognized. Much like the native peoples here.

Sorry I was referring to Envitro's comments. I'll edit my post.

[Daradon]

Ok cool. I was responding as much for you as I was for me, as I'm trying to make sure I understand too. I've commented very sparsely in this thread cause I admit, I just don't know enough. And it's obviously a very touchy subject for some here.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

You do realize that the rockets hamas has can only be fired indiscriminately, right? I'm against the rockets from both a moral and strategic perspective, but I don't get why people don't get the simple fact that one side is using what they have and it is very primitive technology.

Doesn't mean you can criticize Israel simply because they have the technology to protect their own citizens, including Arabs from rocket attacks.

I find it mind-boggling that people actually bring up the number of deaths as a talking point. Its stupid.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

If some people are going to say that yeah Palestinian civilian casualties are bad, but hey that's what happens when you bomb a densely populated area, then why can't there be an argument that Israeli civilian casualties are bad, but hey that's what happens when there's an occupation? Both sides are using what they have, Israel is using its massive firepower knowing there'll be civilian casualties, and hamas is using what they have. If israel can say well the civilian casualties are a necessity, why can't Hamas say this is all we have and we have no other means to end the occupation? Why is one group of civilian casualties ok, but the other isn't?

There is a huge difference. Israel has openly said that they target rocket sites knowing that there will be civilian casualties because Hamas is hiding rockets among civilians. Apparently Israel feels that civilian Palestinian casualties are acceptable in order to get rid of the rocket sites. This means they will hit schools, hospitals, etc, etc because Hamas hides the rockets there.

Hamas on the other hand doesn't get a rats ass where the rockets hit as they've been firing them for years hoping to hit anyone or anything in Israel. The intent IS to inflict civilian casualties and not military and to gain support from outside influences who are actually naive enough to support what they're doing, or at the very least feel sympathy for their plight.

One can argue about Israeli policies and have great points many of which have been outlined here by Flash, Flames Fan Ph.D and others, but when it comes to the action of the Israeli military in targeting Hamas rocket sites, I find it a bit mind-boggling that people suddenly forget the fact that Hamas is intentionally hiding their rockets and weapons among innocent civilians BECAUSE they want people to accuse Israel of war crimes when they target those exact sites.

I actually agree that as the dominant power, Israel should take the first step to solve the problem, but when it comes to how they fight the actual conflicts, everything isn't as black and white anymore.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So Alberta is the second most "Pro-Hamas" (or anti-semetic) province I suppose



http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-sh...#ixzz38rWXoUbb

Stupid poll.

Being pro-Palestinian does not and should not mean you are pro Hamas. I find it strange that you would even say that unless you're actually naive enough to believe Hamas is fighting the 'good' fight for the people of Palestine.

Strange.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Re: Envitro's post

Oh man there's so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to start.

This is all true if you believe the Zionists narrative of "a land without people for a people without land". But there's a reason why the Palestinians have a unique culture, food, dialect, traditional clothing, etc. that can only be developed over centuries or millenia.

But yeah let's pretend that people don't have a right to self determination until they're officially given a country by the UN. By that definition, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and yes even the Israelis had no legitimate claim to any land either. Hey all you western Canadians, you guys never technically had an independent country ever in history, let's ship you all off to Ontario and give all of BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba to some other group. I hear the Mormons or Scientologists are looking for an independent state.

Instead of just saying there is a lot wrong with his post, why not actually break it down so the rest of us who are actually wondering what is wrong with it can learn something too?

You can also address the reasons why Jordan and Egypt want nothing to do with the Palestinian 'state', and why those countries, both of which have attacked Israel before in open war, have managed to secure peace with Israel. Egypt is even seen as a player that can fix a lot of problems Israel has with groups like Hamas and have secured ceasefire agreements before.

[T@T]

This took longer than I expected.

"Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Tuesday appealed to Muslims around the world to help arm Palestinian terror groups in their fight against the “rabid dog” Israel."

Instead of being just a mouth piece for the last 30 years I wish Ayatollah would grow a pair and actually attack Israel just so I could enjoy watching a black&white video a guided bomb landing on his head.

[Arya Stark]

Funny how Ezra Levant and Ian Robinson have been silent about the Pro-Israelis assaulting a pro-Palestinian in Toronto.

This is Canada, not Israel.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014...eens_park.html

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Funny how Ezra Levant and Ian Robinson have been silent about the Pro-Israelis assaulting a pro-Palestinian in Toronto.

This is Canada, not Israel.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014...eens_park.html

LOL, He's lucky to get out alive.

[killer_carlson]

I don't consider that a pro-palistinian flag at all.

I think it is distasteful and entirely inappropriate.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I don't consider that a pro-palistinian flag at all.

I think it is distasteful and entirely inappropriate.

As do I but he still has the right to wave it without being assaulted whether he is right or wrong. That is the beauty of freedom of speech.

Ezra Levant always is the first one to speak up about freedom of speech but hasn't said a word about this incident. I guess freedom of speech only applies to hate filled messages towards muslims.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

As do I but he still has the right to wave it without being assaulted whether he is right or wrong. That is the beauty of freedom of speech.

Ezra Levant always is the first one to speak up about freedom of speech but hasn't said a word about this incident. I guess freedom of speech only applies to hate filled messages towards muslims.

When the idiot is done being a muslim he can join Westboro Baptist Church..fit right in.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Azure

There is a huge difference. Israel has openly said that they target rocket sites knowing that there will be civilian casualties because Hamas is hiding rockets among civilians. Apparently Israel feels that civilian Palestinian casualties are acceptable in order to get rid of the rocket sites. This means they will hit schools, hospitals, etc, etc because Hamas hides the rockets there.

Hamas on the other hand doesn't get a rats ass where the rockets hit as they've been firing them for years hoping to hit anyone or anything in Israel. The intent IS to inflict civilian casualties and not military and to gain support from outside influences who are actually naive enough to support what they're doing, or at the very least feel sympathy for their plight.

One can argue about Israeli policies and have great points many of which have been outlined here by Flash, Flames Fan Ph.D and others, but when it comes to the action of the Israeli military in targeting Hamas rocket sites, I find it a bit mind-boggling that people suddenly forget the fact that Hamas is intentionally hiding their rockets and weapons among innocent civilians BECAUSE they want people to accuse Israel of war crimes when they target those exact sites.

I actually agree that as the dominant power, Israel should take the first step to solve the problem, but when it comes to how they fight the actual conflicts, everything isn't as black and white anymore.

This a report from Human Rights Watch from the 2012 Operation Pillar of Defense which list multiple instances where civilians were the only apparent targets of attack as well as attacks that caused a disproportionate amount of civilian casualties outweigh the value of the military target.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/02/12/i...lated-laws-war

While Hamas deserve blame for using human shields, it's important that Israel not use it as an excuse for every civilian causality. Certainly we wouldn't believe if Hamas started claiming that it's were only targeting IDF facilities in Israel with their indiscriminate rockets attacks.