Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by blankall

These are children being put up to something awful by cowardly older men who don't value their lives at all.

Is this a new thing?

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Both quotes are not based on facts, but based on deliberate condemnation. What were they saying for the past year?



This is all false. There has rarely been a lull in rocket attacks:



See the above link, in case you are curious about 2013, here it is:

Not sure what the argument is, Hamas had been launching rockets, yet again, nearly daily. How long should Israel take it for? And then the murder of three teens. I am unsure why people are posting that it matters here what set off Israel, it doesn't matter...Hamas has been attacking for months and Israel has defended itself.

1. They have indeed violated international humanitarian law, this is based on fact, this is not a debate.

2. You're correct, there has rarely been a lull in rocket attacks. That however, is not what the article suggests, rather that Hamas (the focus of Israel's current operation) had not fired a rocket since 2012, and that rocket attacks overall had dropped to less than 5 per month. Both of these things are true, as outlined by the link you provided. Here are the statistics:

January Attacks: 0
February Attacks: 1 (1 Rocket - Fatah)
March Attacks: 1 (4 Rockets - Mujahedeen Shura Council)
April Attacks: 13 (17 Rockets - Mujahedeen Shura Council, DFLP, Palestinian Ansar Brigades)
May Attacks: 2 (2 Shells - Abdul Qader al-Husseini)
June Attacks: 3 (5 Rockets - Militants, but believed to be a terrorist group responding to Hamas police killing a Islamic Jihadist leader)
July Attacks: 6 (7 Rockets - Militants)
August Attacks: 3 (4 Rockets - Militants)
September Attacks: 3 (8 Rockets - Militants)
October Attacks: 3 (3 Rockets - Militants)
November Attacks: 4 (5 Rockets - Militants)
December Attacks: 4 (4 Rockets - Militants)

Total Attacks: 43 (3.58 per month)
Total Rockets: 60 (5 per month)
Total Attacks/Rockets Hamas took credit for or was accused of: 0

As you can see, Hamas had not been responsible for a single rocket attack in the year 2013, as indicated by the link you provided and the sources provided by that link. Perhaps the issue is attributing the acts of others to Hamas. To think that they are the only terrorist group in the area (some rockets in the list were also fired from Syria and Egypt) or that they are the only group with rockets would be incorrect.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

No, it really isn't relevant. It's not relevant because the lack of a targeting system doesn't change the intent to hit non-combatants. I'm not sure what argument you think we are having, but my initial comment was responding to the suggestion that Hamas is primarily targeting IDF combatants and not civilians. I reject that suggestion because hundreds of rockets are being fired at urban centers. Are you claiming that if the Iron Dome was unable to intercept rockets, then Hamas would not be firing so many?

As for your question of whether Israel cares, I don't know (though I am convinced that many individual Israelis care a lot). It seems like the leadership of Israel is alarmingly comfortable with the fact that Palestinian civilians are being killed at a far, far greater rate than the people they are supposed to be aiming at (then again, they are employing measures to warn some civilians of impending attacks, so I suppose they care somewhat). From what I can tell, the leadership of Israel seems to believe that any improvement in the lives of Palestinians will amount to a greater threat to Israelis and they are willing to continue to take measures that cruelly oppress the Palestinian people. Currently, it seems that Israel will kill whoever they need to in order to weaken Hamas and to dismantle any sort of supply system that they are not in control of. I also believe that there is an element of collective punishment aimed at the Palestinian people for complicity in the actions of Hamas (which I feel is morally reprehensible).

You describe the targeting of civilian areas to kill the people launching rockets as 'madness' but is it? What should they do instead?


Tangent --> I am confused as to why some 'pro-Israel' posters ignored Flames Fan phd's challenge to outline legitimate grievances of Palestinians (and I think it suggests some blind spots).

If some people are going to say that yeah Palestinian civilian casualties are bad, but hey that's what happens when you bomb a densely populated area, then why can't there be an argument that Israeli civilian casualties are bad, but hey that's what happens when there's an occupation? Both sides are using what they have, Israel is using its massive firepower knowing there'll be civilian casualties, and hamas is using what they have. If israel can say well the civilian casualties are a necessity, why can't Hamas say this is all we have and we have no other means to end the occupation? Why is one group of civilian casualties ok, but the other isn't?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

1. They have indeed violated international humanitarian law, this is based on fact, this is not a debate.

2. You're correct, there has rarely been a lull in rocket attacks. That however, is not what the article suggests, rather that Hamas (the focus of Israel's current operation) had not fired a rocket since 2012, and that rocket attacks overall had dropped to less than 5 per month. Both of these things are true, as outlined by the link you provided. Here are the statistics:



As you can see, Hamas had not been responsible for a single rocket attack in the year 2013, as indicated by the link you provided and the sources provided by that link. Perhaps the issue is attributing the acts of others to Hamas. To think that they are the only terrorist group in the area (some rockets in the list were also fired from Syria and Egypt) or that they are the only group with rockets would be incorrect.

In 2014 rocket attacks increased substantially. Also Hamas has a policy of neither denying or admitting to most rocket attacks. Even then, terrorist groups will often claim responsibility for attacks they didn't commit. So no one knows who committed what attack.

In March of 2014, what Hamas did do was build a giant shrine to the rockets in the middle of their capital:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/hama...191707791.html

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by blankall

The truth is they obviously do feel different. The very idea of a suicide bomber suggests a different feeling about death. Especially as most of the suicide bombers are young people just starting out their lives. The average age of a suicide bomber is 21:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...age-21-1.67906

These are children being put up to something awful by cowardly older men who don't value their lives at all.

Now look how far Israel went to save one kidnapped soldier (Gilad Shalit). Hamas has been caught red handed putting people in the way of rockets.

The truth is that they feel that suicide bombing is the best option that they have...if you gave the young men in Gaza jobs, porn, rock and roll and blue jeans...I think it would a helluva a lot harder to talk them into killing themselves

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

In 2014 rocket attacks increased substantially. Also Hamas has a policy of neither denying or admitting to most rocket attacks. Even then, terrorist groups will often claim responsibility for attacks they didn't commit. So no one knows who committed what attack.

In March of 2014, what Hamas did do was build a giant shrine to the rockets in the middle of their capital:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/hama...191707791.html

Agreed, Hamas can not be blamed for the rocket attacks post-2012 (up to the last couple months at least), whether that means they fired zero is more difficult to say, but considering Israel had not actively accused them of rocket attacks during that time period, it would be factually inaccurate (and irresponsible) to say that Hamas had been firing rockets for all of 2013, or for a continuous stretch of months.

They did also erect a statue celebrating he attacks in 2012 and serving as a warning to Israel. They're a terrorist group... what exactly do you expect? Haha.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Both quotes are not based on facts, but based on deliberate condemnation. What were they saying for the past year?

I don't agree that Hamas has allowed people to leave, I have seen as many reports suggesting people are pushed to stay. Plus, the act of launching attacks in civilian areas is simply using human shields. This is not a debate.

This is all false. There has rarely been a lull in rocket attacks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2014

See the above link, in case you are curious about 2013, here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2013

Not sure what the argument is, Hamas had been launching rockets, yet again, nearly daily. How long should Israel take it for? And then the murder of three teens. I am unsure why people are posting that it matters here what set off Israel, it doesn't matter...Hamas has been attacking for months and Israel has defended itself. Not only that, Israel discovered some shockingly deep tunnels that Hamas was planning attacks from, attacks with certainly no chance of survival, in other words suicide for the attackers.

Exactly correct (outside of the conspiracy stuff), unsure what Israel should do in this circumstance. Perhaps get rid of Hamas? Just exactly why would anyone want them in charge? The elected government in Gaza wants to destroy Israel, I can see Israel absolutely limiting supplies. Embargoes are fairly standard when dealing with a hostile nation. Get rid of Hamas and I don't doubt for a second massive relief for the people. Recognition of Israel? Possibly even greater access to goods. I know it is harsh, but I am really not sure why the resistance to something that appears very simple.

Correct, and I agree completely. Full autonomy for Palestinians is good, but by all means, Israel should be in charge of security, to protect both Israelis and Palestinians. Palestinian police is fine, but military, only Israel. I think we are way past the point of providing Palestinians with Jets. Perhaps in the future, but for now zero chance. There has simply been too much violence.

This entire response is devoid of facts and full of empty rhetoric. (Stark contrast, given the number of facts supplied in the maligned article.) The one fact/link supplied supports the argument of the article.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

If israel can say well the civilian casualties are a necessity, why can't Hamas say this is all we have and we have no other means to end the occupation?

Because it isn't ending the occupation, it's extending it.

Hamas is the little guy who starts a fight with the big dude, gets his face punched, and then complains that he's getting bullied. And then he does it again. And again. And again.

[Senator Clay Davis]

So Alberta is the second most "Pro-Hamas" (or anti-semetic) province I suppose

The survey by the Toronto-based Forum Research found that 17 percent of respondents sided with Israel in the Middle East conflict, while 16 percent favored the Palestinians. Fully 64 percent said they lean toward neither side, and 3 percent said they did not know.

Despite Canada having the most pro-Israel government in its history, the findings reflected a drop in support for the Jewish state since the question was last asked in December 2012, when Canada voted against recognizing Palestine at the United Nations. At that time, 22 percent of those polled favored Israel and 15 percent leaned toward the Palestinians.

However, the latest figures closely resembled results in July 2012, when 16 percent of respondents leaned toward Israel and 17 percent toward the Palestinians.

In the poll, support for Israel was especially common among Canadians aged 55-64, at 23 percent; among males and middle-income earners, each at 21 percent; in Alberta and British Columbia, 20 percent; and among Conservative voters, 37 percent.

The survey suggested that support for the Palestinian side was most common among the young, at 20 percent; males, 19 percent; lower-income groups, 21 percent; and those earning $80,000 to $100,000 annually, 24 percent.

Support for Palestinians was high in Quebec at 22 percent and Alberta at 19 percent; among left-leaning New Democrats, 27 percent; those with a post-graduate education, 23 percent; non-Christians, 20 percent; those with no religion, 27 percent; and Francophones, 23 percent.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-sh...#ixzz38rWXoUbb

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So Alberta is the second most "Pro-Hamas" (or anti-semetic) province I suppose

If that sentance isn't loaded then I don't know what is.

Regardless of which side you support, this thread contains 2 sets of people whose opinions will not be swayed and can only result in someone getting banned.

I look forward to the impending drama

[Senator Clay Davis]

Of course I was intentionally going with an absurd, over the top line, but it's not absurd when you read most of this thread. With certain posters anything less than 100% support of all Israel action is being pro-Hamas or anti-semetic, or anything less than 100% condemnation of Israel is supporting apartheid or genocide or child murder. I think the poll showcases most people fall in the middle and view the actions of both sides as problematic. But the extremes tell you otherwise and that one side is universally right or wrong, when really the truth is somewhere in the middle. That's why a neutral approach is what most Canadians want, instead Harper is probably the most pro-Israel leader in the world.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Ducay

If that sentance isn't loaded then I don't know what is.

Regardless of which side you support, this thread contains 2 sets of people whose opinions will not be swayed and can only result in someone getting banned.

Maybe. However I'm sure I'm not alone saying that I've read pretty much every post in this thread to try and gain an understanding on what is going on over there, without posting an opinion. I have a lot of jewish friends, and a few from the middle east so I'd like to get an idea what they are all going through.

I started to wonder if Calgarypuck could solve the middle east crisis somehow. There are some passionate people on either side in here, so it would be kind of like solving the CBA.....

[photon]

For a good chuckle listen to 660, Ezra Lavant has an ad on for a rally.

[Daradon]

A pro-Israel rally?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Daradon

A pro-Israel rally?

Yeah, a peaceful rally instead of a violent protest, this is Canada not Gaza.. that kind of thing.

[photon]

http://www.calgaryforisrael.ca/

[Arya Stark]

Ezra Levant is like a real life cartoon. There is no way even he believes what he says. Probably the biggest troll reporter ever.

[Arya Stark]

Oh and don't forget to donate.

[Senator Clay Davis]

And don't forget to visit http://stoptheriots.ca/ while you're at it. Of note, there's nothing about Canucks or Canadiens fans on that website

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by photon

http://www.calgaryforisrael.ca/

I'd never seen his show. Watching the first few minutes of it, it's just great television.

He called the protestors "Arabs" and "Muslims."

Those counter-protesting? A small contingent of "Canadians."

It's nice when a person advocating for the beauty of Canada wields a nice scalpel to separate some Canadians from others. I think we're both proud graduates of Western Canada High. Whooo!

Edit:

Actually, this is pretty offensive. He's deliberately and repeatedly calling one side Arabs while he calls the other side Canadians. What a peach of a guy.