Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Those are the tunnels into Egypt, I'm talking about the new tunnels into Israel, the ones also mentioned in your link. Are they still a myth?

Yeah, absolutely. We're talking about the context of your post, correct? If Israel wasn't a factor, why would the tunnels exist?

To clarify, I'm not arguing that they don't exist, but rather that your comment:

"If Israel stopped, Hamas would re-arm and build tunnels with the sole purpose of attacking Israel."

Which is similar to a comment like:

"If Hamas stopped, Israel would continue relentlessly bombing Gaza."

It simple ignores the actual purpose and timeline of the act you're concerned with.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Fair enough, they've stopped for short periods of time. I mean long term though. With Hamas' mandate, do you think if Israel were to stop building, soften the border between Gaza and Israel, and lifted blockades, would Israelis be safe? Assuming the Palestinians keep status quo and keep Hamas in power and they are able to operate within Gaza freely.

Yes, I do. I think if Israel showed real steps towards establishing a 2 state solution, it would take the fuel out of hamas. Right now, Hamas and the people of Gaza have nothing to lose. You lift the blockade, stop building settlements, and let them open their economy, now all of a sudden there is real tangible effects should they decide to launch rockets again. Mandates change, charters change. Egypt went to war with israel in '73 and a few years later was signing a peace treaty with it once a part of their land was returned.

[Zevo]

That is what you were arguing. You clearly stated that "those" tunnels and their actual purpose was for supplies. Once you are proven wrong, you change the goalposts rather than admit it.
It's as clear as Flash said, there's no point debating with people who have a clear bias. I'm done with you.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

This has already been proven inaccurate, why maintain the myth?

Why do posters like yourself, Nage, and blankall continue to make false claims that have been proven wrong by reputable sources?

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Of course:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-palestinians/



If you genuinely hadn't read the link, then I apologise, but there it is for a bit of reference on the history of those tunnels and what their actual purpose was.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Yeah, absolutely. We're talking about the context of your post, correct? If Israel wasn't a factor, why would the tunnels exist?

To clarify, I'm not arguing that they don't exist, but rather that your comment:

"If Israel stopped, Hamas would re-arm and build tunnels with the sole purpose of attacking Israel."

Which is similar to a comment like:

"If Hamas stopped, Israel would continue relentlessly bombing Gaza."

It simple ignores the actual purpose and timeline of the act you're concerned with.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Yes, I do. I think if Israel showed real steps towards establishing a 2 state solution, it would take the fuel out of hamas. Right now, Hamas and the people of Gaza have nothing to lose. You lift the blockade, stop building settlements, and let them open their economy, now all of a sudden there is real tangible effects should they decide to launch rockets again. Mandates change, charters change. Egypt went to war with israel in '73 and a few years later was signing a peace treaty with it once a part of their land was returned.

I guess you and I will just fundamentally disagree then. I don't think you can equate Hamas, a known terrorist organisation, with Egypt and how far they have come. Palestinians sure, if they were to denounce Hamas, and cooperate with Israel to eradicate them, I think things would change.

For the bolded part, they should stop building, that would be good first step by Israel, but they just can't let Hamas re-arm. They need to go.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Zevo

That is what you were arguing. You clearly stated that "those" tunnels and their actual purpose was for supplies. Once you are proven wrong, you change the goalposts rather than admit it.

It's as clear as Flash said, there's no point debating with people who have a clear bias. I'm done with you.

Sure, whatever you say I guess. The original intention for the tunnel system was never to attack Israel. They were adapted after the fact.

Again, great example of why people with emotional investment in this conflict aren't exactly suited for this conversation. You're reading far too much into this because of your daughter.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Zevo

I guess you and I will just fundamentally disagree then. I don't think you can equate Hamas, a known terrorist organisation, with Egypt and how far they have come. Palestinians sure, if they were to denounce Hamas, and cooperate with Israel to eradicate them, I think things would change.

For the bolded part, they should stop building, that would be good first step by Israel, but they just can't let Hamas re-arm. They need to go.

I think over time, radical groups tend to mellow out. No one likes to see their family being killed. Take for example, the Turkish-Kurdish conflict. No one thought the 2 sides would ever have peace, but just last year they reached a deal and the Kurds gave up terrorist acts. Same for hamas, they originally wanted all of israel to be Palestine and then slowly moderated to accepting the 1967 borders. Yesterday's terrorist can become your partner in peace, you just have to show some smart leadership and take opportunities when presented (like the unity gov't between fatah/hamas which stopped the rockets).

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Okay...I've never denied that Palestinians are suffering or have grievances. The idea that Israel is purposely targeting civilians and committing genocide is BS though. My point really is with all the genuine suffering, why do posters feel the need to go over the top with their rhetoric about Israel.

If you go back and read my post, you'll note that I made zero equivocations about what the Israelis go through. I didn't say "they shouldn't have to worry about bombs and missiles, but..." nor have I used the word genocide* to describe anything, nor have I said Israelis purposefully target civilians.

All I posted were the very real and undeniable grievances that the Israelis have in this conflict. It's not limited to that list, but it's fair to say that list covers some major problems.

And all I asked for, as a thought exercise, was to see if those posters who sympathize and empathize primarily with the Israelis could draft a list of real and undeniable grievances that the Palestinians have in this conflict.



---

* and please note, there was zero rhetoric in my post.

[Arya Stark]

I think Hamas would love if they had access to the best weapons in the world and to be funded by the United States of America, but they don't have any other way to bring in weapons other than tunnels since Israel and Egypt have both borders closed. If this is a war, and not an assault on Gaza shouldn't Hamas be allowed to have weapons too? They would be more than happy to have f-16's that could rain down only on Israeli soldiers and not kill one innocent civilians but rockets they can't aim at all other than pointing it in one direction is all they have.

I have zero problems with the tunnels. They should be built and be continued to be built as long as the borders are closed. They need a way to get in their supplies.

[PIMking]

the only thing I can say if the tables were turned and Hamas was doing what Israel is doing the world would be up in arms screaming "terrorism" and wanting to go into another war.

The Palestinians are not innocent either since they're basically harboring the terror group Hamas and allowing them to store weapons in the public area.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Nothing in this conflict is going to improve until you get Jewish, Islamic and Christian extremists away from being able to drive the agenda.

I'm pretty much a believer in a secure Israel and Palestinian state...but I really find Israeli bemoaning civilian danger difficult to empathize with when the civilian casualties are so disproportionate. About 1000 to 1? Or 300 to 1 or 100 to 1?

In any case...Israel has the ability to bomb Palestine back to the Stone Age and is showing some restraint...but I see this policy as being counter productive to Israel's interests.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

I think Hamas would love if they had access to the best weapons in the world and to be funded by the United States of America, but they don't have any other way to bring in weapons other than tunnels since Israel and Egypt have both borders closed. If this is a war, and not an assault on Gaza shouldn't Hamas be allowed to have weapons too? They would be more than happy to have f-16's that could rain down only on Israeli soldiers and not kill one innocent civilians but rockets they can't aim at all other than pointing it in one direction is all they have.

I have zero problems with the tunnels. They should be built and be continued to be built as long as the borders are closed. They need a way to get in their supplies.

The tunnels are there for no other purpose than to help continue the cycle of violence.

Strange that you agree that Israel should stop demolishing settlements or taking away land and should even perhaps take an extra step in helping stop the issues at hand, but at the same time you have no problem with Hamas, a terrorist organization whose sole goal is to destroy Israel, digging tunnels to help funnel weapons and innocent Israeli civilians that they kidnap back into Gaza.

Like I mentioned about 20 pages back, if you compare the Kurds in Iraq with the people of Gaza, the plight is very similar. Especially if you go back to the 90s where the Kurds weren't treated very well by the dominate power in Iraq. It took 20+ years, but the Kurds are on the verge of having their own country per say. A tanker full of $100 million dollars worth of oil from the Kurds is at port in Texas waiting to get approved to unload. Because of their patience and decision to not resort to constant terrorism while Iraq was in chaos the past 10 years, they are where they are.

Regardless of what Israel does, I have a hard time believing organizations like Hamas would just go away. Which is exactly what people here in this thread keep getting wrong. When the reason of your existence is to destroy someone, you won't just go away because that someone gives in to your every demand.

Israel changing many of their policies, many of which I do not agree with, only benefits the people of Palestine. Hamas wants this cycle of violence to continue. They want Israel to keep a closed border, keep blockades, keep fighting the battles of settlements, etc, etc. That is how they keep the Palestinian people helpless, and that is how they remain in power.

And here you say that you agree with that cycle of violence. That you agree with the tunnels that Hamas builds. Shame on you for supporting a terrorist organization.

[boosterjuice]

Here's a great app to help understand the terror that Israelis have to live with on daily basis. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-...873642097?mt=8

Red alert app sounds an alarm on your smart phone every time a rocket is fired at Israel. Hamas will never be content unless Israel is wiped off the map.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Azure

if you compare the Kurds in Iraq with the people of Gaza, the plight is very similar. Especially if you go back to the 90s where the Kurds weren't treated very well by the dominate power in Iraq. It took 20+ years, and two US invasions but the Kurds are on the verge of having their own country per say. A tanker full of $100 million dollars worth of oil from the Kurds is at port in Texas waiting to get approved to unload. Because of their patience and decision to not resort to constant terrorism while Iraq was in chaos the past 10 years, they are where they are.

fyp...there were two wars that decimated the Iraq government and created the opportunity that Kurds seized. Not sure the Palestinians ever had a really similar opportunity.

But I agree with you insofar as I too think a big dollop of patience would go a long way to helping the middle east...but I understand its hard to be patient with a obnoxious neighbour...let alone a dangerous one.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Azure

The tunnels are there for no other purpose than to help continue the cycle of violence.

Strange that you agree that Israel should stop demolishing settlements or taking away land and should even perhaps take an extra step in helping stop the issues at hand, but at the same time you have no problem with Hamas, a terrorist organization whose sole goal is to destroy Israel, digging tunnels to help funnel weapons and innocent Israeli civilians that they kidnap back into Gaza.

Like I mentioned about 20 pages back, if you compare the Kurds in Iraq with the people of Gaza, the plight is very similar. Especially if you go back to the 90s where the Kurds weren't treated very well by the dominate power in Iraq. It took 20+ years, but the Kurds are on the verge of having their own country per say. A tanker full of $100 million dollars worth of oil from the Kurds is at port in Texas waiting to get approved to unload. Because of their patience and decision to not resort to constant terrorism while Iraq was in chaos the past 10 years, they are where they are.

Regardless of what Israel does, I have a hard time believing organizations like Hamas would just go away. Which is exactly what people here in this thread keep getting wrong. When the reason of your existence is to destroy someone, you won't just go away because that someone gives in to your every demand.

Israel changing many of their policies, many of which I do not agree with, only benefits the people of Palestine. Hamas wants this cycle of violence to continue. They want Israel to keep a closed border, keep blockades, keep fighting the battles of settlements, etc, etc. That is how they keep the Palestinian people helpless, and that is how they remain in power.

And here you say that you agree with that cycle of violence. That you agree with the tunnels that Hamas builds. Shame on you for supporting a terrorist organization.

The Kurds in Iraq have fought several bloody wars with the Iraqi government over the past 50 years. They certainly didn't reach this point solely with negotiation. There's no question that Hamas has been a curse to Gazans and Palestinians in general and that they deserve the lion's share of the blame for their rocket attacks (and the subsequent counter-attacks) as well as the blockades that are a major source of Gaza's misery, but your wrong about the settlements. Palestine will have to push Israel on the settlement because time after time Israel has shown that's is satisfied with the status quo, and who can blame them after all the settler population is growing steadily and they overwhelmingly for the parties of the governing coalition.

[WCW Nitro]

So Israel's new president is opposed to a Palestinian state, wants to expand israeli territory, and backs more settlements.


"Reuven Rivlin, who was sworn in on Thursday as Israel's 10th president, is a far-right hawk with a quirky sense of humour who is known as the guard-dog of democracy....He has made no secret of his vision of a Greater Israel encompassing all the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean......Considered to be among the Likud's most hawkish members, Rivlin has never hidden his opposition to the creation of a Palestinian state and is a staunch backer of Jewish settlements."



http://news.yahoo.com/reuven-rivlin-...222655327.html

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

So Israel's new president is opposed to a Palestinian state, wants to expand israeli territory, and backs more settlements.


"Reuven Rivlin, who was sworn in on Thursday as Israel's 10th president, is a far-right hawk with a quirky sense of humour who is known as the guard-dog of democracy....He has made no secret of his vision of a Greater Israel encompassing all the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean......Considered to be among the Likud's most hawkish members, Rivlin has never hidden his opposition to the creation of a Palestinian state and is a staunch backer of Jewish settlements."



http://news.yahoo.com/reuven-rivlin-...222655327.html

And from the same article is apparently a staunch supporter of democracy, human rights and the cooperation of Jews and Arabs.

But his jocular approach, coupled with a determined stance on democratic and human rights, has won him plaudits and respect from across the political spectrum.

Indeed, it is his views on other issues that have garnered him support from the left and even the Arab minority, which makes up one fifth of Israel's population."

"For years, Rivlin has preached the need for cooperation between Jews and Arabs. And as Knesset speaker, he extended a hand to the Arab factions in sharp contrast to his colleagues on the right," an editorial in Haaretz said.

He lashed out at Likud MP Miri Regev when she described illegal African immigrants as a "cancer".

Your post seems to illustrate nicely the way both extreme sides are operating; ignoring the other side of the story.

And as a side, regardless of whether it's called Israel or Palestine, a one-state solution that would see democracy, cooperation and human rights doesn't seem overly evil to me, just idealistic and maybe, unfortunately, impossible.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Azure

Like I mentioned about 20 pages back, if you compare the Kurds in Iraq with the people of Gaza, the plight is very similar. Especially if you go back to the 90s where the Kurds weren't treated very well by the dominate power in Iraq. It took 20+ years, but the Kurds are on the verge of having their own country per say. A tanker full of $100 million dollars worth of oil from the Kurds is at port in Texas waiting to get approved to unload. Because of their patience and decision to not resort to constant terrorism while Iraq was in chaos the past 10 years, they are where they are.

You're kidding right? The Palestinians are supposed to do what the Kurds did?

As part of those patient "20+ years," perhaps you forgot the decimation that the US brought to the ruling establishment of Iraq, and the country in general, for the Kurds to get the breathing room that they have?

Unbelievably short memory by you and those recommending that post. And let's not even speak of the repercussions that such an analogy describes for Israelis.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Al Shifa Hospital, the main hospital in Gaza, has been struck with reports of at least 10 dead. As expected Hamas blames the IDF and the IDF blames Hamas.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

IF it was an Israeli munition...how could they blame Hamas?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

IF it was an Israeli munition...how could they blame Hamas?

Not allowing evac.