Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The idea that the international community and the united states would allow a newly formed palestinian state to wipe israel off the map is about as absurd as the idea that a newly formed palestinian state would be able to wipe israel off the map.

This is one of those areas where Middle East bluster is harmful to their cause. But as you note, a balanced observer of the region would note that Israel is not, in any way, in danger of being wiped off the map.

One of the "fears" that we're presented with is that Middle East instability will lead to more dangerous conditions for Israel. I think this is greatly overstated because many Middle Eastern countries have problems that far outweigh the value of the rhetoric thrown towards Israel. Case in point: Iraq and Syria. Both places are a mess, and we were always led to believe that instability in such countries bodes very poorly for Israel. Nukes and chemical weapons will be unaccounted for and before you can blink, headed towards Tel Aviv.

Well guess what? They're too busy beating up on each other to care about Israel. For many of us, this isn't a surprise.

[AltaGuy]

Mass protests in the West Bank being under-reported:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...tion-ceasefire

The violence of the#Gaza#conflict has spread to the West Bank where six Palestinians have reportedly been killed and scores wounded in the past 24 hours in the biggest clashes with Israeli forces for several years.The Israeli military was put on high alert in the West Bank on Friday, which has been declared a "day of rage" by Palestinian factions.Three Palestinians were shot dead in the occupied West Bank in separate incidents involving both the Israeli army and a civilian who appeared to be a Jewish settler, medics and witnesses said.

I hope the Palestinians in the West Bank continue protesting day-after-day. The march was highly symbolic, as they marched from Ramallah to the checkpoint blocking them from Jerusalem and the south of the West Bank. A real shame the Isareli army over-reacted, but I hope all the other cities in the West Bank follow suit.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It's interesting that Israel's actions over the last couple of weeks have proven that the pro-Palestine side's "outrageous claims" made at the beginning of this thread are no longer outrageous.

Wow talk about a cult of death.

Treating this tragedy like it's some kind of victory.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

Wow talk about a cult of death.

Treating this tragedy like it's some kind of victory.

Huh?

[AltaGuy]

Anyone else find the terms of the proposed American ceasefire completely ridiculous? They are proposing that Israeli troops not be withdrawn from Gaza! So for a week, the Israelis get to move around in Gaza with impunity making arrests and gathering information? It also would, of course, mean that any ceasefire would be broken in about three minutes as soon as the Israelis searched the first home.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28478792

The first stage would be a temporary humanitarian truce that would go into effect at the start of the Muslim festival of Eid next week. The pause in hostilities would then, it is proposed, allow negotiations on a more permanent ceasefire.But it is not clear if the two sides will be able to agree. It is thought that Israel wants to keep its troops on the ground during the temporary ceasefire, to give it more time to destroy the cross-border tunnels.#

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Anyone else find the terms of the proposed American ceasefire completely ridiculous? They are proposing that Israeli troops not be withdrawn from Gaza! So for a week, the Israelis get to move around in Gaza with impunity making arrests and gathering information? It also would, of course, mean that any ceasefire would be broken in about three minutes as soon as the Israelis searched the first home.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28478792

So essentially Hamas stops firing rockets, Israel stays, arrests and assassinates whomever they please, and the occupation of Gaza remains in place indefinitely. Right.... I'm sure this will fly.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I saw Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, giving an interview to the BBC after Israel had killed more than 60 people in the Gaza district of Shejaiya. He said he regretted the civilian casualties in Gaza but they were the fault of Hamas. Netanyahu said Israel had warned people to get out. Some had taken the advice; others had been prevented from leaving by Hamas.

I was back in London for my son’s 11th birthday party by the time all those people were killed in Shejaiya. But my impression of Hamas is different from Netanyahu’s. I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel’s accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. I saw men from Hamas on street corners, keeping an eye on what was happening. They were local people and everyone knew them, even the young boys. Raji Sourani, the director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza, told me that Hamas, whatever you think of it, is part of the Palestinian DNA.

I met Sourani first when he was condemning abuses by Yasser Arafat’s men. He has taken an equally tough stance on Hamas. Now he says Israel is violating the laws of war by ignoring its legal duty to treat Palestinian civilians as protected non-combatants.

When I left Gaza, Palestinian rockets were landing uncomfortably close to Erez crossing. When the alert sounded, our Israeli driver leapt out, leaving the engine running, and took cover behind a wall. It is very frightening to be caught up in a rocket attack like that. Israeli civilians have been protected by the Iron Dome anti-missile system, by a big investment in civil defence (in the border town of Sderot, even the bus stops double as bomb shelters) and because their people are trained from childhood about how to take cover.

But it is wrong to suggest that Israeli civilians near Gaza suffer as much as Palestinians. It is much, much worse in Gaza. I defy anyone with an ounce of human feeling not to feel the same after ten minutes in Gaza’s Shifa Hospital with wounded and dying civilians. In the mortuary, it’s so overcrowded that the bodies of two children are crammed on to a single shelf. One day, they had only found enough of the remains of six women and children to fill a single stretcher.

Before Gaza, I’d spent most of the past two months in Baghdad, Beirut, Jerusalem, Aleppo and Damascus. The Middle East is on fire. I haven’t seen anything like it since my first reporting trip to the region in 1990. I don’t think anyone knows how to put the fire out.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-af...stinians-human

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-af...stinians-human

Of course he's not going to see Hamas using civilians. Does he really think they will grab women and children and clutch them to their chest and slowly back away like in the movies? Does he really think they will show reporters where they hide their rockets? what a silly article.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It's interesting that Israel's actions over the last couple of weeks have proven that the pro-Palestine side's "outrageous claims" made at the beginning of this thread are no longer outrageous.

Let's be honest - everything about the middle east is outrageous. Syria, Iran, Iraq, Arab Spring - it never ####ing stops.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Of course he's not going to see Hamas using civilians. Does he really think they will grab women and children and clutch them to their chest and slowly back away like in the movies? Does he really think they will show reporters where they hide their rockets? what a silly article.

Do you know how the term "human shields" is being in used in the context of this conflict?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Do you know how the term "human shields" is being in used in the context of this conflict?

Yes, do you?

I guess that reporter wasn't in Shejaia when this happened.

The presence of militant fighters in Shejaia became clear Sunday afternoon when, under the cover of a humanitarian truce intended to allow both sides to remove the dead and wounded, several armed Palestinians scurried from the scene.

Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but at least two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a baby blanket and held on his chest as if it were an infant.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Yes, do you?



I guess that reporter wasn't in Shejaia when this happened.

Perhaps you can explain it to me.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Yes, do you?

I guess that reporter wasn't in Shejaia when this happened.

If you're going to post that, can you at least post the article itself? Be nice to know the source after all.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Perhaps you can explain it to me.

Don't be obtuse. You know exactly what Hamas is accused of doing and that Globe and Mail article shows exactly how they try and hide amongst the civilian population. Also if you don't think Hamas strategically places their hideouts and munitions in and around hospitals and schools, well then your head is buried deeper in the sand than I thought.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Yes, do you?

I guess that reporter wasn't in Shejaia when this happened.

So is Israel's stance, "we know they have human shields (women and children) and we are dropping the bombs anyways".

And if it is Hamas' agenda to drive up the Palestinian death rate, why is Israel willingly playing right into their hands?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

If you're going to post that, can you at least post the article itself? Be nice to know the source after all.

Posted it once already but here you go.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle19683732/

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

So is Israel's stance, "we know they have human shields (women and children) and we are dropping the bombs anyways".

And if it is Hamas' agenda to drive up the Palestinian death rate, why is Israel willingly playing right into their hands?

Like anybody else, I can't really know what Israels stance is, I was just replying to an article posted.

Edit: From the same article I posted from the Globe. Take it for what it's worth.

The shelling of Shejaia took its toll of the civilian population there. While the Israelis had warned citizens two days earlier to leave, many had refused in large part because Hamas said it expected people to remain.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Like anybody else, I can't really know what Israels stance is, I was just replying to an article posted.

So if Hamas positions itself near and around civilian population, why would Israel continue to attack these outposts knowing damn well they are going to slaughter dozens of innocent people. Its almost worse than just claiming ingorance and "collateral damage".

I think the answer is, they don't care. I believe they are trying to teach the Palestinian population in Gaza a lesson through terror and fear, and that inlcudes Hamas, and regular citizens. Its intimidation tactics. Like the thread title suggests, Israel wants to show everyone it doesn't screw around. This is their territory and the Palestinians better keep in line or pay the consequences.

Like I said in an earlier post, this is so far beyond "self defence" its ridiculous.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Don't be obtuse. You know exactly what Hamas is accused of doing and that Globe and Mail article shows exactly how they try and hide amongst the civilian population. Also if you don't think Hamas strategically places their hideouts and munitions in and around hospitals and schools, well then your head is buried deeper in the sand than I thought.

Well that's not what you said, is it? That's why I asked for clarification, because your first comment did not line up with the reality of the situation (it was simply dismissive of that report using a silly and unrealistic example).

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/...t-controversy/

"It would be impossible at this point to say how much truth there is to the human shield argument," said Michele Dunne of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. "That's not going to be possible to do in the heat of the conflict."

"Civilian casualties on the Palestinian side are very high. That is something Hamas can use in the court of public opinion. Israel has to have an answer to that: The civilian casualties are so high because of Hamas, and this is their answer to that."

Enough with the condescending language, can you debate this in a civil way without accusing people of having their head in the sand or being obtuse? I asked you a question because I wanted clarification on what your definition was. Quit insulting people, please.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Well that's not what you said, is it? That's why I asked for clarification, because your first comment did not line up with the reality of the situation (it was simply dismissive of that report using a silly and unrealistic example).

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/...t-controversy/



Enough with the condescending language, can you debate this in a civil way without accusing people of having their head in the sand or being obtuse? I asked you a question because I wanted clarification on what your definition was. Quit insulting people, please.

Who and how did I insult anyboby.