Summer 2014 Prospect Ranking Poll Rd6

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by neo45

If you can name a top 4 Dman with worse point production than Sieloff then I am all ears. There simply aren't any. That combined with his health issues should drastically drop him in the ranks


And by the way, Regehr had more points as a 17 year old than Sieloff did the year AFTER he was drafted

there is a one year sample where Sieloff got 11 pts in 44 games in the OHL.

Top 4 D-men in the NHL that have negligble offensive output:

Hamonic 18 pts in 66 games toi 25:00
Paul Martin 15 pts in 39 games toi 24:34
Jay Bouwmeester as a Flame 24 pts in 82 games
Dan Hamhuis 22 pts in 79 games 23:57
Brodin 19 pts in 79 games 23:54

5 of the top 30 TOI d-men in the league are within Sieloff's range....

there are 120 d-men in the league that play top 4 minutes.

Health issues..... Gary Roberts should have retired a Flame.

Selanne should never had made it to the NHL at all.


There are only 50 D-men in the NHL (out of 180 regulars) that have 20 or more points at even strength.

A whole lot of defenseman scoring depends how they are used on the PP and whether a forward gets top PP time on the point.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well Klimchuk should dominate the WHL this year much like Baertschi did in his 19 year old year. Klimchuk should go and do well at the World Juniors. Those are the expectations.

I think fans sometimes are a little wary about goalies so I can see many of us downranking them slightly because they are wildcards.

bolded quoted for truth

I remember being really excited about Trevor Kidd and much more recently Leland Irving.

Edit. why is Q F T censored?

[gonzo29]

Difficult decision between Wotherspoon and Klimchuk, but went with Wotherspoon. What he showed in the NHL last season made me believe he will be a solid 2nd pairing guy for a long time for this team.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

there is a one year sample where Sieloff got 11 pts in 44 games in the OHL.

Top 4 D-men in the NHL that have negligble offensive output:

Hamonic 18 pts in 66 games toi 25:00
Paul Martin 15 pts in 39 games toi 24:34
Jay Bouwmeester as a Flame 24 pts in 82 games
Dan Hamhuis 22 pts in 79 games 23:57
Brodin 19 pts in 79 games 23:54

5 of the top 30 TOI d-men in the league are with Sieloff's range....

there are 120 d-men that are top 4.

Health issues..... Gary Roberts should have retired a Flame.

Selanne should never had made it to the NHL at all.


There are only 50 D-men in the NHL that have 20 or more points atr even strength.

A whole lot of defenseman scoring depends how they are used on the PP and whether a forward gets top PP time on the point.

Those were in the NHL not junior. Check their junior stats for a fair comparison.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

there is a one year sample where Sieloff got 11 pts in 44 games in the OHL.

Top 4 D-men in the NHL that have negligble offensive output:

Hamonic 18 pts in 66 games toi 25:00
Paul Martin 15 pts in 39 games toi 24:34
Jay Bouwmeester as a Flame 24 pts in 82 games
Dan Hamhuis 22 pts in 79 games 23:57
Brodin 19 pts in 79 games 23:54

5 of the top 30 TOI d-men in the league are with Sieloff's range....

there are 120 d-men that are top 4.

Health issues..... Gary Roberts should have retired a Flame.

Selanne should never had made it to the NHL at all.


There are only 50 D-men in the NHL that have 20 or more points atr even strength.

A whole lot of defenseman scoring depends how they are used on the PP and whether a forward gets top PP time on the point.

Wtf is this post?

I meant in junior. Those guys were probably all PPG in junior... Bouwmeester outscored him when he was 3 years younger

11 points isn't a one off thing for Sieloff. Its actually his highest point total at any level. Let that sink in, because he hasn't broken 11 points in a season going all the way back to bantamn

If there is a mendoza line for defenseman Sieloff is almost certainly below it

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

What I don't get is that Wotherspoon, Ortio, Granlund and Reinhart had great break out seasons for our top farm team and aren't getting rewarded ahead of a player who crapped the bed last year in Baertschi. Sure I like Poirier and Klimchuk too but they haven't proved much yet.

Because although Sven started his AHL season off very badly he was arguably the best offensive player in Abby over the final 20-25 games and has an almost 0.5 PPG in 50 NHL games. None of those other guys have done anything that's better than that, breakout seasons or not.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

there is a one year sample where Sieloff got 11 pts in 44 games in the OHL.

Top 4 D-men in the NHL that have negligble offensive output:

Hamonic 18 pts in 66 games toi 25:00
Paul Martin 15 pts in 39 games toi 24:34
Jay Bouwmeester as a Flame 24 pts in 82 games
Dan Hamhuis 22 pts in 79 games 23:57
Brodin 19 pts in 79 games 23:54

5 of the top 30 TOI d-men in the league are with Sieloff's range....

there are 120 d-men that are top 4.

Health issues..... Gary Roberts should have retired a Flame.

Selanne should never had made it to the NHL at all.


There are only 50 D-men in the NHL that have 20 or more points atr even strength.

A whole lot of defenseman scoring depends how they are used on the PP and whether a forward gets top PP time on the point.

Hamonic 40pts in 50 games in juniors
Hamhuis 60pts in 59 games in juniors
Bouwmeester 60 pts in 61 games in juniors
Brodin might be closer

The point is, rarely do defensemen who can't put up points in junior succeed in the NHL, even defensive defensemen.

It isn't unheard of, but quite rare.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Hamonic 40pts in 50 games in juniors
Hamhuis 60pts in 59 games in juniors
Bouwmeester 60 pts in 61 games in juniors
Brodin might be closer

The point is, rarely do defensemen who can't put up points in junior succeed in the NHL, even defensive defensemen.

It isn't unheard of, but quite rare.

Outside of bottom pairing guys (which is what Sieloff could be) I am pretty sure it is unheard of, which was my point

Not getting more than 11 points at any level before going pro has got to be a first

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Because although Sven started his AHL season off very badly he was arguably the best offensive player in Abby over the final 20-25 games and has an almost 0.5 PPG in 50 NHL games. None of those other guys have done anything that's better than that, breakout seasons or not.

Both Granlund and Reinhart outperformed Baertschi in the AHL last year.

Reinhart had 21 goals and 42 assists for 63 points in 66 games
Granlund had 25 goals and 21 assists for 46 points in 52 games as a rookie
Baertschi had 13 goals and 18 assists for 29 points in 41 games

One of these is not like the others. And you think Baertschi was the best offensive player? Clearly he wasn't. That just fits your narrative better. Maybe you are thinking of the season before?

Baertschi had a much worse season than Max or Markus.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Ortio, no question.

He's Kiprusoff, reincarnated.

And to this day, this freaks me out.

Kiprusoff
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search

Ortio
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search

Glove, height, weight, crooked smile, birthplace, and late round draftees...

[mile]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You didn't comment on the RGI when I was exploding young minds.

What?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Because although Sven started his AHL season off very badly he was arguably the best offensive player in Abby over the final 20-25 games and has an almost 0.5 PPG in 50 NHL games. None of those other guys have done anything that's better than that, breakout seasons or not.

He was far from the best offensive player at any time last season in Abby.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

A better comparison for Jankowski would be Joe Colborne. Colborne scored 41 points in his sophomore year and turned pro while Jankowski scored 25. Mark still has a fair upside but he needs to turn it up.

.

Good comparison.

[kehatch]

My next 5

1. Klimchuk: (Plays like: Ryan Callaghan, Type: Two way winger) Klimchuk was caught in the shadows of Poirier and Monahan last season but he stands a good chance of stepping out of the shadows this season. He is a speedy winger with strong defensive play and some offensive potential. He lacks ideal NHL size but he doesn’t shy away from contact. He maintains a strong work ethic. He projects as a defensive energy forward with some offensive upside.
   
2. Granlund: (Plays like: Jussi Jokinen, Type: Top 6 playmaking forward) Granlund is a smallish forward that has a lot of skill but lacks a physical game. Like many prospects he is still working on rounding out his two-way game. He could also benefit from improved skating. There were questions whether Granlund’s game would translate to North America, but he proved any doubters wrong last season. Granlund had a very successful season making his North American debut and putting up close to a point per game in the AHL. He also played well in 7 games in the NHL. He may the most NHL ready of the Flames AHL players last season and we may see him make the NHL full time this season, though it may be as a winger instead of a centre.
   
3. Reinhart: (Plays like: Brandon Sutter, Type: Defensive forward) Reinhart has a strong work ethic, a high end defensive game, and possesses loads of hockey sense. Initial projections were that Reinhart had limited offensive potential at the NHL level. However, he led the AHL Heat in scoring in his second season. He still projects as a third line forward but he may shatter that if he can continue to improve offensively. Reinhart moved from centre to wing last season. Given the centre depth of the Flames his best chance of making the team will be on the wing.
   
4. Gilles: (Plays like: Ben Bishop, Type: Goalie) Gilles is a big athletic butterfly goalie. He maintains good position, has good athletic ability, and he is aggressive in his crease. Gilles had a phenomenal freshman season earning and keeping the starting position while putting up very good numbers on a marginal team. Gilles started the following season with elite numbers but he struggled mid-season (including at the World Junior Championship), probably in part due to injury. He rounded back into form to end the season. He will return to Providence next season for at least one more year before going pro.
   
5. Ortio (Plays like: Mikka Kiprusoff, Type: Goalie) Ortio plays a very similar game to previous Flames superstar Kipper. Like Kipper, he is a smaller goalie with high end athletic ability. Ortio struggled in his first North American debut in 2010. He returned to Finland for a couple of seasons to round out his game. Last season was his first full season in North America and it was a good one where he put up very respectable numbers in the AHL. He is slotted in as the Flames AHL starter for next season and should have the opportunity to move to the NHL in 2015/16.

[mile]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Because although Sven started his AHL season off very badly he was arguably the best offensive player in Abby over the final 20-25 games and has an almost 0.5 PPG in 50 NHL games. None of those other guys have done anything that's better than that, breakout seasons or not.

From my impression I thought Baertschi started his AHL stint on a slow start, picked it up in the middle of the season, but slowed down again in the final few games of the regular season and the first round playoff series. He has shown he can produce points, but his consistency and other parts of his game are still incomplete.

He has improved, but hasn't perfected his game in the AHL yet. I expect him to start this season in Adirondack, and stay there until he has shown what Granlund and Reinhart has shown this past season - consistency throughout an entire season.

I don't want to hear that he is playing well for X amount of games and then struggle for another stretch of games.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

there is a one year sample where Sieloff got 11 pts in 44 games in the OHL.

Top 4 D-men in the NHL that have negligble offensive output:

Hamonic 18 pts in 66 games toi 25:00
Paul Martin 15 pts in 39 games toi 24:34
Jay Bouwmeester as a Flame 24 pts in 82 games
Dan Hamhuis 22 pts in 79 games 23:57
Brodin 19 pts in 79 games 23:54

5 of the top 30 TOI d-men in the league are within Sieloff's range....

there are 120 d-men in the league that play top 4 minutes.

Health issues..... Gary Roberts should have retired a Flame.

Selanne should never had made it to the NHL at all.


There are only 50 D-men in the NHL (out of 180 regulars) that have 20 or more points at even strength.

A whole lot of defenseman scoring depends how they are used on the PP and whether a forward gets top PP time on the point.

Everyone of those guys put up significantly more points in their development league than Sieloff. The exception was Brodin who was playing against adults as a pro while developing.

It is a legitimate flag. Usually players with a high NHL potential put up points in their development league even when they don't project as offensive players in the NHL. They are just that much better than the other players. Even Regehr had almost three times as many points as Sieloff at the same development point in junior.

The concern isn't that Sieloff won't put up points at the NHL level. Its if his lack of offensive results in junior indicate a lack of skill that will hurt his transition to the NHL.

That isn't to say he won't make it. But his offense, lack of size to support his kamikaze game, and the lost year of development are all pretty big flags. I hope he does make it though. I like his game.

[GreenLantern2814]

Gotta vote Gillies - potential #1 franchise goalie trumps the ceilings of all our other prospects. Klimchuk is very unlikely to become a franchise player. Wotherspoon, same deal.

I like Ortio, but I don't think his ceiling is Kiprusoff. I can see him having a very Jaro Halak type of career.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

The thing about goalies is they are difficult to project. Every team's fans see future #1 in their drafted goalies. A team doesn't draft a goalie planning on him being a solid backup either. But there's only 30 starter jobs avaiable, so for that reason it's challenging to compare them to skaters especially in a list like this. There's probably just as good of a chance Ortio, McDonald and Gillies combine for 50 NHL games as there is of one of them emerging as a star.

[SebC]

Reminder: An apples-to-apples scoring comparison of Flames prospects scoring is posted here.