How can you be so certain that it was not the Ukrainian military accidentally shooting down an airliner? They did exactly that back in 2001.
How can you be so certain that this particular BUK system wasn't Ukrainian-owned and manned by pro-Russia defectors from Ukrainian military now working with the rebels?
The answer to both questions is that you don't know and therefore it's impossible to blame this on Russia (either directly or indirectly) until we have more information.
Ukraine doesn't have anti-aircraft missile launchers because the separatists don't have planes.
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.
SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks show down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Grek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
I'll agree that IF it crossed the border from Russia intelligence would probably know about it, but the way you word it again just puts full blame on the Russians with nothing to back up the accusation.
I also agree with you that harsher words are needed, but the problem is I don't think Obama, or really America regardless of who is in charge is in a position to do anything directly against the rebels without giving Russia a legitimate reason to enter the foray.
And before people get all high and mighty about Putin, I think it should be reminded that arming and training terrorists is exactly what the US did that led to 9/11. If Russia is doing it, then it's wrong, but let's get off our pedestal and remember that the West is just as guilty of actions like this.
I did use the word probably lol.
I agree that the US really has no play, alone, as a part of NATO moving in to try to make peace is probably a better option for all involved. If Russia supplied this system it now puts them at a point of weakness. If proven Russia will not be able to defend their actions before the world and getting involved against NATO in a peacekeeping role would be a poor move by them imo. Sanctions will be the only real move the US and allies will take against Russia directly.
You are right, we did a lot of arming the people that became terrorists or enemies of the West. The US and the rest of the free world were however fighting the spread of communism, it was a different time, although we probably haven't learned our lessons as we were putting arms in the Syrian situation which some have probably been used against the Iraqi army.
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America is the only reason Bin Laden became a somebody.
Lets say I give you a taser because you are getting bullied at school. Now the bullying has gone on for a while, so I know you are pretty upset and in a hyper alert state. Some random person comes running toward you, and you think they are coming for you so you whip out the taser and blast them.
Should I not be held partially accountable for giving you the taser, when I probably knew better?
Pretty sure the rebels in question are in Ukraine not Russia.
So no, he did not say EXACTLY that.
Good grief, I don't agree with very much of what lanny9 has posted but the pile on here is disgusting.
__________________ I am in love with Montana. For other states I have admiration, respect, recognition, even some affection, but with Montana it is love." - John Steinbeck
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America is the only reason Bin Laden became a somebody.
That's an incorrect statement.
read the Bin Laden interviews by Peter Bergen, and the book war on top of the world by Eric Margolis to gain an understanding of the CIA operation in Afghanistan.
Coles note, the CIA worked with and armed the local mujahadeen and didn't deal the foreign mujahadeen that Bin Laden was with because Bin Laden and the import fighters saw American money and support as counter to their mission.
Plus the Bin Laden exploits in Afghanistan were greatly exaggerated by all accounts and the Afghan fighters wanted nothing to do with the foreign fighters because they were worthless and were too eager to die.
Anyways read the books
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Lets say I give you a taser because you are getting bullied at school. Now the bullying has gone on for a while, so I know you are pretty upset and in a hyper alert state. Some random person comes running toward you, and you think they are coming for you so you whip out the taser and blast them.
Should I not be held partially accountable for giving you the taser, when I probably knew better?
Yes, but I don't think Russia should be sanctioned or held responsible for this single incident.
Americans and the CIA funded terrorists in Bin Laden and al-Qaida and they used those weapons and money to come back and did terrorist attacks in the United States.
The Americans were funding them for a different reason, they obviously didn't expect the money and weapons they gave out to come back and haunt them. I think Russia is in the same boat if it turns out to be rebels. They fund them for different reasons so yes they are partially responsible I just don't think they should be held accountable.
If you think Obama should strongly react because Americans died, how do you think Putin is going to react if you go after his people with missiles? Rebel or otherwise?
Nobody is putting words in your mouth. Don't suggest missile fire on Russian people and then complain that people notice you said that.
But are these Russian people, or just people who speak Russian within the sovereign territory of Ukraine? One would be to fire a missile at Russian territory, one would be firing a missile at armed rebels who are Ukrainian citizens who speak Russian who are responsible for taking down a commercial jetliner. Many of these rebels are from Russia, guys who have crossed the border illegally to fight against the ruling government, Ukraine is in the right here are they not?
Putin is really looking the fool upon the world stage here and hopefully he will now pull back from the rebels. Strong talk with threats of more very severe sanctions will put a lot of pressure on Putin as their large businesses will be telling him to move back and stop this covert aggression. This was reported earlier in the week that some of the CEO's of large enterprise are putting pressure on him to pull back.
This incident was posted earlier in the thread, but you have an account of a fully trained crew from the most advanced military in the world taking out an airliner by (hopefully) accident. It is possible:
Again though, this is a totally different world from 1988. It's really about as relevant as relating it to French crossbow taking down a bit air balloon. As I said before, with my cellphone I can identify an aircraft above me. Things are much, much different now than 26 years ago
I already posted why I posted that. It was at the very start of lanny's rants...
I wasn't that far in the thread yet, obviously, when I posted my reply.
I just don't get the fascination with Bush's reaction. I don't find it odd, I don't find it a dereliction of duty. I remember watching Farenheit 911 and thinking what the heck is Michael Moore trying to say with this? So stupid.
24 hours later you have almost everyone applauding Bush's reaction at Ground Zero.
__________________ I am in love with Montana. For other states I have admiration, respect, recognition, even some affection, but with Montana it is love." - John Steinbeck
At this point I don't care who investigates as long as it isn't the Malaysian Government. You can be sure that any investigation coming from them consists of gross misinformation, entertaining all theories from Russian conspiracy to Aliens.
And we all meant that he was actually suggesting that the US use nuclear weapons.
They were all sarcastic replies to a ridiculous political view point.
Obviously. Nothing fosters productive political discussion like sarcasm and ridicule.
Glad you guys had fun.
__________________ I am in love with Montana. For other states I have admiration, respect, recognition, even some affection, but with Montana it is love." - John Steinbeck
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read the Bin Laden interviews by Peter Bergen, and the book war on top of the world by Eric Margolis to gain an understanding of the CIA operation in Afghanistan.
Coles note, the CIA worked with and armed the local mujahadeen and didn't deal the foreign mujahadeen that Bin Laden was with because Bin Laden and the import fighters saw American money and support as counter to their mission.
Plus the Bin Laden exploits in Afghanistan were greatly exaggerated by all accounts and the Afghan fighters wanted nothing to do with the foreign fighters because they were worthless and were too eager to die.
Anyways read the books
Almost the same thing that has gone down in Syria by all accounts. problem is that you supply one group only to realize that some of the weapons are going to those who are there for a whole other reason. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. US is in a tough position when it comes to the Islamic world.
I just don't get the fascination with Bush's reaction. I don't find it odd, I don't find it a dereliction of duty. I remember watching Farenheit 911 and thinking what the heck is Michael Moore trying to say with this? So stupid.
This incident was posted earlier in the thread, but you have an account of a fully trained crew from the most advanced military in the world taking out an airliner by (hopefully) accident. It is possible:
__________________ I am in love with Montana. For other states I have admiration, respect, recognition, even some affection, but with Montana it is love." - John Steinbeck
Ukraine doesn't have anti-aircraft missile launchers because the separatists don't have planes.
The Ukraine most definitely does have anti-aircraft missile launchers, including the exact type (Buk system) alleged to have been used in this incident.
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lol.
It was at the very start of lanny's rants...
