Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You said exactly that:

Going after the rebels is very different than going after Russia with missiles. People asked for ideas I suggested some. You don't have to do much, you could take out some of their weapons caches, heavy artillery etc. These are two different things than what you are suggesting I said imo.

[burn_this_city]

Can we keep the discussion around the tragedy and not devolve into he said she said nonsense?

[IgiTang]

nm

[Hatter]

I just feel awful for the victims and families of this crash.

Hopefully a thorough investigation can get to the bottom of all this.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

How can you be so certain that it was not the Ukrainian military accidentally shooting down an airliner? They did exactly that back in 2001.

How can you be so certain that this particular BUK system wasn't Ukrainian-owned and manned by pro-Russia defectors from Ukrainian military now working with the rebels?

The answer to both questions is that you don't know and therefore it's impossible to blame this on Russia (either directly or indirectly) until we have more information.

Of course I cannot, but I can all but guarantee intelligence does know. The US, UK, Ukraine and other allies will have intelligence on the ground, they will have satellites pinned to those locations trying to build the west's case against Russia and the rebels. This is simply a system that you just don't pick up and run with, you need a lot of training to be able to use it. The intelligence probably saw it crossing the border into eastern Ukraine.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by Hatter

I just feel awful for the victims and families of this crash.

Hopefully a thorough investigation can get to the bottom of all this.

Problem is I think the rebels have gone through a lot of the wreckage, will be interesting to see what they will be able to pull from it. CNN also said the rebels are fighting in the area as well, making is dangerous for the people wanting to do an investigation to carry out their job.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

When I said it was almost certainly an accident, I meant that the SAM operators likely didn't intend to shoot down a commercial airliner carrying nearly 300 civilians. Nobody has anything to gain from that. This tragedy was either caused by inexperienced rebels not knowing how to properly operate the BUK system or Russian or Ukrainian forces making a terrible mistake akin to the US Navy shooting down Iran Air 655.

there's not a single operator in these things, there's usually a operator or two and a mission commander, this allows for overlap on identification.

usually the mission commander is fairly experienced in terms of operation of and target identification.

usually in these systems theirs a dial ignore setting igitang will probably have a better term, where you can filter out things like commercial airliners, or radar signatures that might be attributed to things like birds to help clear out your screen so you can focus on actual military targets.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by lanny9

Of course I cannot, but I can all but guarantee intelligence does know. The US, UK, Ukraine and other allies will have intelligence on the ground, they will have satellites pinned to those locations trying to build the west's case against Russia and the rebels. This is simply a system that you just don't pick up and run with, you need a lot of training to be able to use it. The intelligence probably saw it crossing the border into eastern Ukraine.

I'll agree that IF it crossed the border from Russia intelligence would probably know about it, but the way you word it again just puts full blame on the Russians with nothing to back up the accusation.

I also agree with you that harsher words are needed, but the problem is I don't think Obama, or really America regardless of who is in charge is in a position to do anything directly against the rebels without giving Russia a legitimate reason to enter the foray.

And before people get all high and mighty about Putin, I think it should be reminded that arming and training terrorists is exactly what the US did that led to 9/11. If Russia is doing it, then it's wrong, but let's get off our pedestal and remember that the West is just as guilty of actions like this.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

there's not a single operator in these things, there's usually a operator or two and a mission commander, this allows for overlap on identification.

usually the mission commander is fairly experienced in terms of operation of and target identification.

usually in these systems theirs a dial ignore setting igitang will probably have a better term, where you can filter out things like commercial airliners, or radar signatures that might be attributed to things like birds to help clear out your screen so you can focus on actual military targets.

Along with rebels claiming responsibility I guess it is just a matter of where they got it and who supplied the training or even the soldiers trained to fire such a weapon. I think the evidence that we as civilians know is pointing to the rebels and with Russian assistance(be it just training, supplying the system or even troops to fire)

Now Israel moving with a ground invasion.... busy day in the news.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by lanny9

Along with rebels claiming responsibility I guess it is just a matter of where they got it and who supplied the training or even the soldiers trained to fire such a weapon. I think the evidence that we as civilians know is pointing to the rebels and with Russian assistance(be it just training, supplying the system or even troops to fire)

Now Israel moving with a ground invasion.... busy day in the news.

I can see the infowars headline already..

Ukrainian Jews shoot down passenger plane to distract world from Gaza invasion.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

You said Obama needs to make a strong statement and grow some balls, you follow that up with telling us all the actions the US should take (sanctions, ect..). It was a simple connect the dots really. People then kept mentioning the need to gather information before acting and you kept ignoring them, this is the first time you agreed on the topic.

.

While we're talking about connecting dots, a couple of people decided to take what he said and connect the dots to the use of nuclear weapons.

Totally unfair.

[Arya Stark]

I don't see a scenario where Russia is responsible. They don't control what terrorist rebels do.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

there's not a single operator in these things, there's usually a operator or two and a mission commander, this allows for overlap on identification.

usually the mission commander is fairly experienced in terms of operation of and target identification.

usually in these systems theirs a dial ignore setting igitang will probably have a better term, where you can filter out things like commercial airliners, or radar signatures that might be attributed to things like birds to help clear out your screen so you can focus on actual military targets.

Its called a QR-Function (Quick Reaction) It can be set to Auto-initiate, auto select weapon(if different variance of missile on the platform),auto-lock, Manual fire. For a certain range threat it can auto fire, but it is certainly not 30K ft+ auto fire.

In most cases, it is a confirmation of the person tracking the target and the person firing. They are not the same person. It is setup this way to avoid these types of issues.

EDIT: MB, misread post what I could elaborate on.
Yes, there is a filter setting on most tactical radars. Very much like what you described. It is exactly as you said "filtering" or "Tuning" . There are many settings but unfortunately I cant discuss that...

[Igster]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Really?

Because the two situations are comparable in so many ways.

I already posted why I posted that. It was at the very start of lanny's rants...

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

I don't see a scenario where Russia is responsible. They don't control what terrorist rebels do.

Well when they arm the rebels with military grade weapons with the ability to bring down planes like the one was brought down, they certainly aren't in the clear here.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

While we're talking about connecting dots, a couple of people decided to take what he said and connect the dots to the use of nuclear weapons.

Totally unfair.

And we all meant that he was actually suggesting that the US use nuclear weapons.

They were all sarcastic replies to a ridiculous political view point.

[Bill Bumface]

This incident was posted earlier in the thread, but you have an account of a fully trained crew from the most advanced military in the world taking out an airliner by (hopefully) accident. It is possible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by lanny9

Going after the rebels is very different than going after Russia with missiles. People asked for ideas I suggested some. You don't have to do much, you could take out some of their weapons caches, heavy artillery etc. These are two different things than what you are suggesting I said imo.

If you think Obama should strongly react because Americans died, how do you think Putin is going to react if you go after his people with missiles? Rebel or otherwise?

Nobody is putting words in your mouth. Don't suggest missile fire on Russian people and then complain that people notice you said that.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well when they arm the rebels with military grade weapons with the ability to bring down planes like the one was brought down, they certainly aren't in the clear here.

Not to shoot down civilian planes they don't.

America is the only reason Bin Laden became a somebody.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

I don't see a scenario where Russia is responsible. They don't control what terrorist rebels do.

Scenario 1, the operators of the Buk system are Russian "Volunteers" they've done this in the past as it gives their people valuable battlefield experience. The rumor is that at the start of the air campaign against Iraq that Russian members of their anti-air troops were on the ground and assisting in the operation and coordination of Iraq's air defense net.

Scenario 2. The Russians specifically supplied advanced weapons to the separatists and trained them on the usage of the system.

2 is different then 1, but it takes time to train a air defense crew especially on a system like this.