How many people do you think you fool with this nonsense?
I think it is telling when the about section of the video calls Israel a terrorist state, which is BS.
This guy is brutal and to use him for quotes is silly. He has though tried to 'clear the air' yet he has done the damage he has done. He changed his ways a bit after his attendance at this conference in Iran to 'chat' about the holocaust:
Earlier Israel's use of chemical weapons and their admittance of it was brought up with evidence, to which you responded, "If they did, which is not something I think they would admit to" which, unfortunately, completely ignored the evidence that had just been presented.
As well, you've done a lot of attacking, but you haven't addressed some of the serious issues regarding the high cost of Palestinian civilian lives by Israeli forces, when things like that come up, you either don't see them, or choose not to acknowledge them, which I find interesting.
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Originally Posted by Nage Waza
Israel was barraged by rockets for how many months? Israel targets the terrorists and their assets, avoiding civilian casualties using an unprecedented system of informing civilians. Hamas targets civilians and Israel tries to avoid civilians. This is all more than obvious.
That's true, they do indeed warn citizens when possible. Usually about 3-5 minutes ahead of the bombing, using a phonecall or a drone. Sometimes the tactic works, other times they bomb without warning, bomb the wrong property, cause significant collateral damage, or send a warning a bomb nothing at all. How are the bombed sites usually decided upon? Usually by neighbours that "inform" on other neighbours, with deeply questionable amounts of checking down by the military.
It's certainly not a bad thing, but it does not absolve them of killing more civilians? I think we can both logically agree that senseless killing needs to stop on BOTH sides.
If there is one member of Hamas in a house, and 5, 6, 7, any number of civilians (including children) Israel still goes ahead with the bombing. Is the death of one Hamas worth a whole family of innocent lives?
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Originally Posted by Nage Waza
I think you are beyond confused, seriously. You think this is even a debate or worthy of a post?
No need to be rude. I'm genuinely curious what, in your mind, justifies the extremely lopsided civilian death counts. Israel isn't really killing many terrorists with these attacks, but they ARE killing many civilians. You don't find that concerning? Or worth your time? Israel does no wrong simply because they phone civilians before they bomb them? Is the ultimate defeat of Hamas worth the cost?
I noticed a mention about Hamas rockets reaching major Israeli cities, but you glossed over Israeli willingly bombing downtown Gaza city without warning (which I had brought up earlier), an area DENSELY populated with civilians. I guess what I'm asking, is how is that not an act of terror to you? I don't mean to say Israel is a terrorist state, or no different than Hamas, but for the sake of a balanced discussion, how can you shine no light on some of the atrocities committed by Israel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
No, I find them to be polar opposites.
This, I think, is the most telling of anything you've said. There is good intentions on both side. Their differences are many, and it is without any doubt that Hamas is the worse party in this conflict. However, the similarities in some facets of how they conduct war are undeniable. If you truly view the two without bias, on an even playing field like you ask of others, that should be incredibly clear.
I find the staunchly pro-Israel people such as yourself a bit frustrating, not because of your interest in the many truly shameful acts of Hamas, but rather your complete ignorance over some very shameful acts by Israel.
Last edited by Chill Cosby; 07-14-2014 at 06:59 PM.
Earlier Israel's use of chemical weapons and their admittance of it was brought up with evidence, to which you responded, "If they did, which is not something I think they would admit to" which, unfortunately, completely ignored the evidence that had just been presented.
Israel did not use any weapons that are not used by Canadian forces. If you are trying to hold Israel to a standard that is different than Canada, please explain why. IDF, like other military, routinely do not confirm nor deny. I don't think anywhere I said Canada was using illegal chemical weapons. On the other hand, if Hamas had them, they would use them in a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
As well, you've done a lot of attacking, but you haven't addressed some of the serious issues regarding the high cost of Palestinian civilian lives by Israeli forces, when things like that come up, you either don't see them, or choose not to acknowledge them, which I find interesting.
Who have I attacked? If people are just posting hateful nonsense I call them on it. Otherwise, I enjoy the discussion. I will answer anything you ask.
High civilian casualties are a direct result of launching rockets from homes, etc. I wish this was not the case. I do think Israel has to respond to protect itself. I am not sure how much more clear I can be about this, and I have posted this probably a dozen or two times in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
That's true, they do indeed warn citizens when possible. Usually about 3-5 minutes ahead of the bombing, using a phonecall or a drone. Sometimes the tactic works, other times they bomb without warning, bomb the wrong property, cause significant collateral damage, or send a warning a bomb nothing at all. How are the bombed sites usually decided upon? Usually by neighbours that "inform" on other neighbours, with deeply questionable amounts of checking down by the military.
You think any other military in the world has done more than Israel? Stats already posted in this thread show Israel leading the way in preventing civilian casualties. I wish Hamas resorted to peace rather than violence, I think it is the worst possible situation for Palestinians that are ruled this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
It's certainly not a bad thing, but it does not absolve them of killing more civilians? I think we can both logically agree that senseless killing needs to stop on BOTH sides.
I don't think you will find a thread on the subject where I have not explicitly expressed exactly what you just posted. Sure, lots of people have called me names, but it doesn't make them right. They are just attacking me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
If there is one member of Hamas in a house, and 5, 6, 7, any number of civilians (including children) Israel still goes ahead with the bombing. Is the death of one Hamas worth a whole family of innocent lives?
Israel attempts to warn people, Hamas is the one using human shields. I don't know the solution. Right now Hamas is trying to appeal to the world by planting people on top of their weapon stockpiles. Not Palestinians, but people coming from around the world...disgusting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
No need to be rude. I'm genuinely curious what, in your mind, justifies the extremely lopsided civilian death counts. Israel isn't really killing many terrorists with these attacks, but they ARE killing many civilians. You don't find that concerning? Or worth your time? Israel does no wrong simply because they phone civilians before they bomb them? Is the ultimate defeat of Hamas worth the cost?
Again, this is simple. Israel is fighting an army that wears no uniform and hides behind civilians. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer, nor does Israel. But they certainly won't be sitting back while the rockets are fired at them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
I noticed a mention about Hamas rockets reaching major Israeli cities, but you glossed over Israeli willingly bombing downtown Gaza city without warning (which I had brought up earlier), an area DENSELY populated with civilians. I guess what I'm asking, is how is that not an act of terror to you? I don't mean to say Israel is a terrorist state, or no different than Hamas, but for the sake of a balanced discussion, how can you shine no light on some of the atrocities committed by Israel?
Again, Israel is firing at munitions and rocket sites. Hamas has a goal - have Israel fire back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
This, I think, is the most telling of anything you've said. There is good intentions on both side. Their differences are many, and it is without any doubt that Hamas is the worse party in this conflict. However, the similarities in some facets of how they conduct war are undeniable. If you truly view the two without bias, on an even playing field like you ask of others, that should be incredibly clear.
In my opinion, there is no similarity in any way shape or form. You are unfairly and inaccurately comparing a terrorist group with a country defending itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
I find the staunchly pro-Israel people such as yourself a bit frustrating, not because of your interest in the many truly shameful acts of Hamas, but rather your complete ignorance over some very shameful acts by Israel.
Repeated baseless insults against me may rally some people, but are still made up and false.
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I simply don't see how someone can look at a conflict without bias, see that one nation has responded to terrorism by bombing innocent families, and shrug their shoulders while viciously condemning anyone who speaks out against that nation.
Maybe I'm just not soft enough on Israel for their atrocities to be blind to them and shrug my shoulders. Hearing someone repeatedly mention "rocket attacks" and "human shields" over and over and over, both deplorable tactics, while brushing off equally deplorable tactics like bombing a family home in a populated area simply because it MIGHT have a terrorist in it will never make sense to me.
Neither side has the right to kill innocent people, no matter what. It's just bizarre to see someone claim to agree with that while doing their best to gloss over and shrug off the deaths of one group of innocents.
Israel are sending the bombs. No excuse, whether it be human shields, rockets fired from homes, or Hamas provoking them is stopping the reality: Israel is knowingly killing innocent people, has been doing it for a significant amount of years, and shows no sign of stopping. No excuse changes that fact. No level of evil from Hamas makes that ok.
I simply don't see how someone can look at a conflict without bias, see that one nation has responded to terrorism by bombing innocent families, and shrug their shoulders while viciously condemning anyone who speaks out against that nation.
You are the person that seemed to think Hamas (terrorists) are the same as the IDF. They are completely different. You shrug off every post almost like you did not read them.
I condemn those that post the lies and nonsense. If you are not, I respond.
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Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
Maybe I'm just not soft enough on Israel for their atrocities to be blind to them and shrug my shoulders. Hearing someone repeatedly mention "rocket attacks" and "human shields" over and over and over, both deplorable tactics, while brushing off equally deplorable tactics like bombing a family home in a populated area simply because it MIGHT have a terrorist in it will never make sense to me.
You have yet to show a reasonable (or any) alternative for Israel. Should they sit back and not fire? Despite the fact the people 'voted' in Hamas (although clearly it was done under duress), and Hamas has declared war on Israel, and Hamas fires from the most populated areas possible, I guess I should ignore all of that. After how many rocket attacks did you post a condemnation of Hamas? Wait, you didn't? You are here though to condemn Israel. You should be posting way to get rid of Hamas, if protecting lives is what you care about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
Neither side has the right to kill innocent people, no matter what. It's just bizarre to see someone claim to agree with that while doing their best to gloss over and shrug off the deaths of one group of innocents.
Israel has a right to defend itself, you can't make up rules that are not true. This is not a difficult concept to understand, yet you cannot seem to. Israel is responding to hundreds of rockets that have been fired for months - with no Israeli retaliation. They have had enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
Israel are sending the bombs. No excuse, whether it be human shields, rockets fired from homes, or Hamas provoking them is stopping the reality: Israel is knowingly killing innocent people, has been doing it for a significant amount of years, and shows no sign of stopping. No excuse changes that fact. No level of evil from Hamas makes that ok.
Hamas has been using them as shields and Israel does what it can to mitigate that issue. Yes, certain predicaments require action. What do you think would happen if North Korea launched rockets at South Korea? The same thing, a response. They won't just sit and let it happen. Yet Israel has for months.
This is a very well written article, please have a look:
I simply don't see how someone can look at a conflict without bias, see that one nation has responded to terrorism by bombing innocent families, and shrug their shoulders while viciously condemning anyone who speaks out against that nation.
Maybe I'm just not soft enough on Israel for their atrocities to be blind to them and shrug my shoulders. Hearing someone repeatedly mention "rocket attacks" and "human shields" over and over and over, both deplorable tactics, while brushing off equally deplorable tactics like bombing a family home in a populated area simply because it MIGHT have a terrorist in it will never make sense to me.
Neither side has the right to kill innocent people, no matter what. It's just bizarre to see someone claim to agree with that while doing their best to gloss over and shrug off the deaths of one group of innocents.
Israel are sending the bombs. No excuse, whether it be human shields, rockets fired from homes, or Hamas provoking them is stopping the reality: Israel is knowingly killing innocent people, has been doing it for a significant amount of years, and shows no sign of stopping. No excuse changes that fact. No level of evil from Hamas makes that ok.
Usually Israel is firing on verified rocket or munition sites, they're not firing blindly. They are also showing the areas with pamphlets warning citizens that the attacks are coming.
The only other alternative is for Israel to occupy, destroy the Hamas government and go after the rocket and munition sites on the ground, I will guarantee you that if that happens the casualties will skyrocket on both sides.
If you want to define the end goal of civilian casualties and rampant destruction, Hamas has far more interest in those goals then Israel does, its in their charter, and they are aiming and firing their rockets at populated civilian ares, but it seems that the popular opinion is that Israel should be condemned for not having more casualties on their side due to their defense structure and the fact that they as part of their defense strategy build shelters and train their people on how to get their as quickly as possible.
I would argue that Hamas is a far greater problem then the government in Israel.
The settlements and some of the clumsy and stupid tactics by Israel absolutely have to stop. But until Israel is assured that the rocket attacks will stop permanently its likely that we will not see any progress in terms of peace in the region. Israel cannot go on faith because every time they've declared a cease fire groups like Hamas re-arm, improve their ordinance and start firing again.
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Why doesnt israel use special forces to take out the top of hamas and destroy the rocket sites. (This might be really naive of me though and watching too much 24)
Why doesnt israel use special forces to take out the top of hamas and destroy the rocket sites. (This might be really naive of me though and watching too much 24)
Israel will never want to get rid of Hamas. They can easily kill the top leadership via special ops, but they want damage done in Gaza to push the peace talks further. The current set-up is perfect for israel, they know the rockets are going to do near zero damage but can be used as an excuse every couple of years to bomb, and with Hamas in power in Gaza they can milk that diplomatically as to why there are no talks. Remember, there are no rockets being fired from the West Bank, and yet Israel withheld hundreds of millions of dollars in transfers just because the PA went to the UN to gain an upgraded status. The rockets don't scare Israel, a peaceful leadership that seeks diplomatic means to gain a state does.
Israel will never want to get rid of Hamas. They can easily kill the top leadership via special ops, but they want damage done in Gaza to push the peace talks further. The current set-up is perfect for israel, they know the rockets are going to do near zero damage but can be used as an excuse every couple of years to bomb, and with Hamas in power in Gaza they can milk that diplomatically as to why there are no talks. Remember, there are no rockets being fired from the West Bank, and yet Israel withheld hundreds of millions of dollars in transfers just because the PA went to the UN to gain an upgraded status. The rockets don't scare Israel, a peaceful leadership that seeks diplomatic means to gain a state does.
Israel cannot easily kill the leadership via special ops....
You can't run special ops in Gaza easily. It's a police state with gestapo style informants everywhere. The leaders have also learned to purposely surround themselves in citizens constantly.
The only time to get these guys is when they are in transit in their vehicles. Israel does hit them then, but even that requires a feat of intelligence.
The idea that Israel simply has the option of taking out the head operatives without causing any kind of collateral damage ever is absurd.
You are the person that seemed to think Hamas (terrorists) are the same as the IDF. They are completely different. You shrug off every post almost like you did not read them.
I condemn those that post the lies and nonsense. If you are not, I respond.
Your version of the truth generally seems to be less about honesty, and more about keeping a consistent pro-Israel rhetoric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
You have yet to show a reasonable (or any) alternative for Israel. Should they sit back and not fire? Despite the fact the people 'voted' in Hamas (although clearly it was done under duress), and Hamas has declared war on Israel, and Hamas fires from the most populated areas possible, I guess I should ignore all of that. After how many rocket attacks did you post a condemnation of Hamas? Wait, you didn't? You are here though to condemn Israel. You should be posting way to get rid of Hamas, if protecting lives is what you care about.
Unfortunately I'm not a military professional. You and I both know that to be true, so to be honest I'm not ready with a solution. I do, however, know solutions exist as other nations seem to not lay waste to civilian populations for 20+ years. This is not unique to Israel however. The US has been guilty of killing an incredible amount of civilians in recent conflicts.
You're correct, I didn't post how many rockets Hamas fired. You did. Again. And again. And again. I have noted or agreed with every single bad thing Hamas has done, you however, are simply interested in protecting your fictional view of Israel, not in balanced discussion. When someone says "Israel shouldn't do this" you respond with "well Hamas shouldn't do this." The actions of Israel are not excusable by reference to the actions of Hamas, so stop pretending it is as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
Israel has a right to defend itself, you can't make up rules that are not true. This is not a difficult concept to understand, yet you cannot seem to. Israel is responding to hundreds of rockets that have been fired for months - with no Israeli retaliation. They have had enough.
Of course they have the right to defend themselves. Who is making up rules?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
Hamas has been using them as shields and Israel does what it can to mitigate that issue. Yes, certain predicaments require action. What do you think would happen if North Korea launched rockets at South Korea? The same thing, a response. They won't just sit and let it happen. Yet Israel has for months.
Israel isn't mitigating the issue if it isn't clearly effective.
Great article by the way, some things you should take from it:
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First, it’s important not to get consumed by whether you love or hate Israel. There will be other wars in other places. We need to build rules that apply everywhere. Second, we don’t need to debate the conduct of Hamas.
Stop debating the conduct of Hamas. I've never questioned the negative implications or reasons behind their conduct. You have a serious issue differentiating between defence of Hamas and criticism of Israel.
They are not the same.
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On the whole, the worst incidents in Gaza have resulted from strikes on houses. In traditional rules of war, houses are off limits. Israel’s stated rationale for hitting houses in Gaza is that “Hamas was running the operations of their units out of these homes. Some had weapons storage caches in them.” But residents have already asserted that in some cases there was no such basis. Israel hasn’t clarified whether it thinks these houses were valid targets or whether it hit them by accident.
Hitting houses is against the rules of war.
Israel claims to hit houses because of terrorist occupation, but can't even verify it's own information.
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leafleting is unreliable, and radio announcements about “areas” are, by nature, vague ... In one incident, residents say that there was no phone call and that the strike, which killed six people, came only four minutes after the knock. In another case, a video shows just one minute between the knock and the strike. In two of the worst mass-death incidents, one in Khan Yunis and the other in Rafah, residents say there were no warnings ... Israel has also killed civilians at sites where no Hamas link has been established. The worst was a nine-fatality strike on a café where people were watching the World Cup. Another was a four-fatality strike on a house in al-Meghazi. Another strike killed the driver of a news agency vehicle which, according to the Palestinian news site Ma’an, was clearly marked “TV.”
That isn't consistent with a nation that mitigates civilian casualties to the best of their ability.
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Israel says Hamas has inflated the civilian death count by telling Gazans to ignore strike warnings and stand in harm’s way. It’s true that some Gazans have done this ... It’s not clear how often this has happened or what role Hamas has played
Is this narrative regarding Hamas forcing people to be human shields true? This article doesn't seem to say it as confidently as you do.
And the top comment on the article seems apt. Israel has been killing Palestinians before Hamas, and will kill Palestinians long after Hamas is gone.
Curious, since I see so many dishonest videos coming from both sides on my FB lately, has anyone seen a better honest review of the historical situation in Israel than this goodie from last year?
Curious, since I see so many dishonest videos coming from both sides on my FB lately, has anyone seen a better honest review of the historical situation in Israel than this goodie from last year?
I always find that trying to pinpoint an origin in these types of conflicts is downright impossible, There almost always tends to be an arbitrary period in history which proponents of each side choose that best supports their side of the argument. When we look at history, we tend to look at events as isolated time blocks, but in reality, there is more fluidity. It's difficult to not be subjective to a point.
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I deplore the senseless rocket attacks by Hamas. Unfortunately, cycles of relatively-calm rearming of rockets will be followed by periods such as these large-scale rocket barrages. Hamas will have galvanized their support, hundreds and possibly thousands of Gazans will have died, and there will be another "ceasefire". The only reason there is no ceasefire yet is Hamas has not yet run out of rockets. They will eventually, of course. Or they'll be sick of being killed by the Israeli military for the time being.
But - knowing full well what Israel will do in immediate response to the rockets every time, one must ask what can be done during the next "ceasefire" to prevent the cycle from perpetuating. To me, the only possibility is that Gazans themselves must see an alternative to Hamas. When Gazans look at the West Bank, they must see compatriots who are being rewarded by supporting non-violence, or at the very least not being taken advantage of during periods of calm.
Unfortunately, Fatah has fata-all to show Palestinians as a reward for a period of relative calm in the West Bank. Indeed, since the last intifada, this has been the most peaceful the West Bank has ever been vis-a-vis Israel. Pro-Israel voices will simply point toward the Wall, and suggest that that is the sole reason; but it's clearly not. The West Bank is also able to arm themselves with rockets and fire daily should they choose.
In deciding between support of Hamas and support of Fatah, Palestinians must be given a reason to support non-violence. Something, other than a strong feeling that Israel takes advantage of these periods of calm by extending the Wall, building additional settlements, further annexing East Jerusalem, and destroying the hope for an acceptable political compromise for the Palestinians.
Realistically, I have scant hope that Israel is ready to make one-sided compromises in order to sway popular Palestinian (and indeed, Israeli) opinions. But, Gaza will remain Hamas territory until it does. What should really concern Israel (and us in the West) is that Hamas may end up winning the West Bank as well given how ineffectual the PA looks during the current crisis. Should Hamas gain the West Bank and arm it with rockets as well, it's going to be really, really sad watching what unfolds. Unfortunately, I believe there are some in Israel who want just such a confrontation with Hamas in the West Bank. I think this is what will happen; and it's going to be terrible.
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