The Cammalleri non-trade

[theoforever]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

So Vancouver overpaid for Dorsett as well I suppose, or that's the going rate for a physical 3/4th line W that can play a regular shift.

As others have mentioned, our scouting staff thought so much of the prospects available at the Pittsburgh pick that they traded the pick away. Obviously they see something in Hickey and were comfortable with him as a prospect that they didn't see the need to use the pick.

Stempniak for Bolig. I see Stempniak as a good player his career proves it, Bolig not so much. We want to get bigger, so no problem. Either way, I will cheer for Bolig and hope he shows something good in whatever capacity.

Still, Burke is an egomaniac and lots of people are willing to overlook this in hope Flames turnaround under his leadership. As for Treliving, it is still too early to say if he is a good GM or not.

[aedge]

The offers I suspect were garbage and 3rd round picks seeing as better players available fetched 2nd rounders. Don't want to sen the message that you'll trade your talent for a bag of pucks..


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[Phanuthier]

I suspect the demand was Cammalleri+1st round pick for a 3rd round pick. But I am just speculating, I could be wrong.

Would you trade Cammalleri + Bennett for a 3rd round pick? I would not.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Parallex

None of which he will be providing for us. I'd gladly take a 3rd or 4th round pick for 20 games worth of everything that Mike Cammellari provides in a season where missing the playoffs is a foregone conclusion. If Cammy had another season under-contract then sure don't make a deal but he was a UFA. On a rebuilding team you either ink an extention before the deadline or you exchange that asset in the best deal to be had.

I don't think it's as black and white as this. Maybe if there were *no* benefits whatsoever to having Cammellari for the remainder of the season. There are likely intangible benefits to the team, and the identity they were trying to instill. Whether those intangibles outweighed the 3rd or 4th round pick is the basis of why he wasn't traded in my opinion.

[theoforever]

[QUOTE=Jables16;4846009]

Originally Posted by theoforever

The question is, did Treliving overpay for a 4th line player? And the answer is that he did. So, the perception from this would be that Flames value big players and are willing to overpay. As for the % chances, we all know what they are, and we also know you can get Johnny with a 4th rounder.[/QUOTE]

The only bad thing about drafting Gaudreau in the fourth round is that now everytime we trade away a 3-7th round pick, someone will inevitably say "Oh GREAT! That could've been the next Gaudreau!" I predict this will be the next "Jankowski Rule" in terms of its inevitable inclusion in most threads.

I'm not saying that it's an incredible trade or that he couldn't have possibly been had for a later pick or less, just that the hysteria over trading a third round pick verges on comical. It's simply not a high percentage chance that the pick will become anything of consequence. I'm guessing they felt comfortable trading a third rounder since we had a top 5 first, two seconds, and a third already and saw an opportunity to add size and TRUCULENCE.

The only reason I mentioned Johnny is to address your point - well it is only a 3rd round pick. Sutter used to think well it is only a 2nd round pick. I guess it is improvement. No hysteria here over a stupid pick, like anything else it is just a commodity. Like I said they wanted size and I'm fine with it.

However, in my opinion a 3rd rounder is above market value for a Bolig.
If it is an overpayment, what perception of Treliving is being created when comes to trades?

[theoforever]

Originally Posted by Hackey

When only 1 or 2 posters in this entire thread share your view maybe your just wrong.

Or perhaps he is a visionary.
If everyone was jumping off the cliff would you do it?
Wait, I know the answer...........

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I'd gladly take a 3rd or 4th round pick for 20 games worth of everything that Mike Cammellari provides in a season where missing the playoffs is a foregone conclusion... On a rebuilding team you either ink an extention before the deadline or you exchange that asset in the best deal to be had.

I feel the same way. They were meaningless games. You get what you can.

BUT this wasn't exactly the situation was it? Burke had hopes of re-signing Cammalleri. What Burke misjudged was his ability to sign Cammalleri, which should have been clear to him. Considering that Cammalleri got 5 years at $5M a season, I think Burke seriously misjudged Cammalleri's value on the open market and Cammalleri's penchant for going to the highest bidder. Cammalleri is a very difficult man to re-sign. The Kings couldn't re-sign him, we couldn't re-sign him (twice), and Burke got outbid twice.

I think the value for Cammalleri simply wasn't there because teams that wanted Cammalleri were in the Kesler sweepstakes and I guess Burke didn't want to tarnish his reputation by trading Cammalleri for what Burke considers to be terrible deals.

[nik-]

I don't think Burke really had hopes of signing Cammalleri. If the rumoured offer (what was it, like $12 million over 3) was legit, he for sure knew that wasn't getting it done. It was a polite way of saying "we're moving on"

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That's all well and good except that Cammy for nothing (AKA the deal we got) IS a bad deal...

That's ridiculous. By the same logic than any general manager who lets a pending UFA enter free agency and fails to re-sign him has committed an error. In the real world, not every player in on the team will be traded in a trade deadline deal.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by theoforever

The only reason I mentioned Johnny is to address your point - well it is only a 3rd round pick. Sutter used to think well it is only a 2nd round pick. I guess it is improvement. No hysteria here over a stupid pick, like anything else it is just a commodity. Like I said they wanted size and I'm fine with it.

However, in my opinion a 3rd rounder is above market value for a Bolig.
If it is an overpayment, what perception of Treliving is being created when comes to trades?

I tend to agree. It's not a huge deal and isn't worth worrying about, but I also think it was an overpayment. People say that you only have a small percent of getting a decent NHLer with a 3rd, but when you trade the 3rd for a below average player, you then have a zero percent chance.

That's a little OT though. As for not trading Cammy, I agree with holding onto him if teams were lowballing for the reasons mentioned. Reputation is very important and we don't want to look like pushovers. It is really too bad that Cammy was hot after the deadline though. If that had happened earlier, I think we could have gotten a late 1st. Having said that, I sure did like watching him closeout the season with the Flames. I think some of our young players liked having him around and were enjoying themselves more because he was there.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by theoforever

Or perhaps he is a visionary.
If everyone was jumping off the cliff would you do it?
Wait, I know the answer...........

Or maybe your wrong and making a mountain out of a molehill. I'll go with the majority and more importantly the people actually qualified to run the team on this one. If you think you know better then maybe your a bigger egomaniac than you claim Burke is.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

...As for not trading Cammy, I agree with holding onto him if teams were lowballing for the reasons mentioned. Reputation is very important and we don't want to look like pushovers. It is really too bad that Cammy was hot after the deadline though. If that had happened earlier, I think we could have gotten a late 1st. Having said that, I sure did like watching him closeout the season with the Flames. I think some of our young players liked having him around and were enjoying themselves more because he was there.

I don't see that as at all likely, since Martin St Louis was the only forward traded leading up to the deadline who returned a first round pick.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That's ridiculous. By the same logic than any general manager who lets a pending UFA enter free agency and fails to re-sign him has committed an error.

Not any general manager.

As with everything it depends on circumstances... a team in position to make the playoffs for example, it wouldn't be an error for them because they'll need that person for the prospective playoff run. Or in regards to a player that has literally no offers for their services.

But a non-playoff, rebuilding team that has offers for a upcoming UFA player that you had been unable to come to terms with prior to the deadline? I would say that barring some exceptional circumstance a general manager in that position who lets a pending UFA enter free agency and then fails to re-sign him has indeed committed an error.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by nik-

I don't think Burke really had hopes of signing Cammalleri. If the rumoured offer (what was it, like $12 million over 3) was legit, he for sure knew that wasn't getting it done. It was a polite way of saying "we're moving on"

I disagree. Treliving came out and said that he tried with several proposals that included proposals that had annual dollars that was more than competitive. No reason not to believe him. I think Treliving was unwilling to offer both term and dollars but it didn't sound like Treliving felt his offers were not competitive and wasn't going to get it done. Cammalleri went to the highest bidder. He always does. The mistake is believing he will take a discount to stay.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Parallex

N...But a non-playoff, rebuilding team that has offers for a upcoming UFA player that you had been unable to come to terms with prior to the deadline? I would say that barring some exceptional circumstance a general manager in that position who lets a pending UFA enter free agency and then fails to re-sign him has indeed committed an error.

Like I said, in the real world, things just don't work like that.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I tend to agree. It's not a huge deal and isn't worth worrying about, but I also think it was an overpayment. People say that you only have a small percent of getting a decent NHLer with a 3rd, but when you trade the 3rd for a below average player, you then have a zero percent chance.

That's a little OT though. As for not trading Cammy, I agree with holding onto him if teams were lowballing for the reasons mentioned. Reputation is very important and we don't want to look like pushovers. It is really too bad that Cammy was hot after the deadline though. If that had happened earlier, I think we could have gotten a late 1st. Having said that, I sure did like watching him closeout the season with the Flames. I think some of our young players liked having him around and were enjoying themselves more because he was there.

Your logic doesn't exactly make sense. If a small percentage of 3rd round picks ever become NHL players wouldn't trading for a player who has shown they can play in the NHL a win? There is a low chance the 3rd will ever play but we are getting a player who is pretty much guaranteed to play. There is a chance the player drafted could be better than Bollig but there is also a chance the player will never play a game in the NHL. As it stands now were kind of hedging our bets with the odds as opposed to against them.

[theoforever]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Or maybe your wrong and making a mountain out of a molehill. I'll go with the majority and more importantly the people actually qualified to run the team on this one. If you think you know better then maybe your a bigger egomaniac than you claim Burke is.

Everyone on this site is stating their opinions, it is our right.
Your opinion that 'if everyone thinks so, then it must be true' is not a valid argument. There was a time everyone thought earth was flat, but then........

When comes to Burke, he is a public person running a franchise with fanatical fans, so we can question and evaluate his performance since apparently we got nothing better to do.

Back in the past Riser was a GM and 'qualified' and we know what happened, to think about it Hitler was elected too..........

[nik-]

Originally Posted by FAN

I disagree. Treliving came out and said that he tried with several proposals that included proposals that had annual dollars that was more than competitive. No reason not to believe him. I think Treliving was unwilling to offer both term and dollars but it didn't sound like Treliving felt his offers were not competitive and wasn't going to get it done. Cammalleri went to the highest bidder. He always does. The mistake is believing he will take a discount to stay.

And that's where I disagree. They didn't make a mistake, they knew exactly what was going to happen and were ok with it.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by theoforever

Everyone on this site is stating their opinions, it is our right.
Your opinion that 'if everyone thinks so, than it must be true' is not a valid argument. There was a time everyone thought earth was flat, but then........

When comes to Burke, he is a public person running a franchise with fanatical fans, so we can question and evaluate his performance since apparently we got nothing better to do.

Back in the past Riser was a GM and 'qualified' and we know what happened, to think about it Hitler was elected too..........

The fact that you think these things are at all comparable says it all.

[trublmaker]

Originally Posted by theoforever

Everyone on this site is stating their opinions, it is our right.
Your opinion that 'if everyone thinks so, then it must be true' is not a valid argument. There was a time everyone thought earth was flat, but then........

When comes to Burke, he is a public person running a franchise with fanatical fans, so we can question and evaluate his performance since apparently we got nothing better to do.

Back in the past Riser was a GM and 'qualified' and we know what happened, to think about it Hitler was elected too..........

well that escalated quickly