Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Chill I get what your saying, but you need to add one other factor to your calculations. The Hamas terror arm shields themselves among the civilians. They fire rockets from schools and hospitals and other densely populated areas. Hamas is a death cult, they see the death of their own citizens as a positive propaganda weapon so they encourage it.

I agree Israel needs to find another way, when they attempted to target senior leadership through the use of their special forces and selected targeting they got a whole lot of negativity from it.

Right now Israel from a defense standpoint can't really back off because Hamas has always used these periods to re-arm and improve their rockets.

As a side note, you can talk about the lower Israeli casualties and rightfully so, but its not from a lack of trying by the extremist groups, I mean at one point a few days ago I read that they fired over 80 rockets into Israel in an hour, its more fortune, and Israel's citizens being well drilled in terms of getting to shelters then its Hamas not trying to kill people enmasse.

Both sides are at fault absolutely, but the biggest issue right now in any peace plan has to be the security of Israel and the only way that happens is if terror groups like Hamas are taken out of the picture.

100% agree.
I don't want any confusion over me defending Hamas or anything like that, or that they aren't TRYING to kill civilians, simply that Israel is really doing so much damage that it's hard to view them in a positive way.

A solution needs to occur, but Israel needs to figure out a way to do that without massacring anymore innocents. They have both the power to kill and the power to protect. Hamas is, while belligerent, comparatively weak and unable (or uninterested) in protecting Palestinians, so Israel needs to work on doing that themselves while executing better attacks.

[Flash Walken]

don't worry, Chill, no one thinks you're defending hamas by not actually defending them.

That is the view of the paranoid.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

don't worry, Chill, no one thinks you're defending hamas by not actually defending them.

That is the view of the paranoid.

Nage might lol.

[Azure]

Well, because Hamas hides among civilians, it is expected that there will be civilian causalities when Israel does anything.

And right now they're choosing to go with airstrikes, which are even worse. The only other option would be an actual invasion to take out the rocket sites and stop the attacks. Not sure which is better/worse.

The same thing keeps happening. Hamas shoots rockets into Israel for weeks or months, and then something bigger happens like a kidnapping and the whole thing escalates. Israel masses at the border, and spends about a week launching airstrikes. Sometimes the invade, sometimes they don't.

Will Hamas ever be defeated? Is that the solution? Obviously they need to go before there is any chance of peace. As to how you get rid of them I don't know.

Israel certainly doesn't help the situation with their policies that more than likely breed more Hamas supporters within Palestinian territory.

[Flash Walken]

They could always use white phosphorus like when they invaded Lebanon the last time.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well, because Hamas hides among civilians, it is expected that there will be civilian causalities when Israel does anything.

And right now they're choosing to go with airstrikes, which are even worse. The only other option would be an actual invasion to take out the rocket sites and stop the attacks. Not sure which is better/worse.

The same thing keeps happening. Hamas shoots rockets into Israel for weeks or months, and then something bigger happens like a kidnapping and the whole thing escalates. Israel masses at the border, and spends about a week launching airstrikes. Sometimes the invade, sometimes they don't.

Will Hamas ever be defeated? Is that the solution? Obviously they need to go before there is any chance of peace. As to how you get rid of them I don't know.

Israel certainly doesn't help the situation with their policies that more than likely breed more Hamas supporters within Palestinian territory.

There's actually quite a bit of talk about this being different.

Hamas' popularity is waning. They aren't delivering anything they've promised. They are bringing ridiculous hardship on their people with no results. They also appear weak and helpless right now. Israel is taking out their leaders with impunity.

There's also a clear divide opening between the standard of living of Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

They could always use white phosphorus like when they invaded Lebanon the last time.

The white phosphorous was actually used in the Gaza Strip in the last invasion. White Phosphorous is also used by all modern armies in conditions with low light. The white phosphorous Israel was using was contained in canisters.

The other option is to blindly send your own troops into poorly lit situations with entrenched enemies waiting. No army in the world would do that.

[Azure]

Well I actually agree that Hamas has to be eliminated. Obviously you want to do that without civilian causalities. Which I agree is almost impossible due to the way Hamas operates.

I also read today that Israel sees this as being different. They believe they can break Hamas once and for all and get rid of them. Who knows.

Hamas doesn't have the arsenal they once had either.

[Flash Walken]

Weird. I must have been imagining it.

Oh wait, an admission!

Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.

The announcement that the Israel Defense Forces had used phosphorus bombs in the war in Lebanon was made by Minister Jacob Edery, in charge of government-Knesset relations. He had been queried on the matter by MK Zahava Gal-On (Meretz-Yahad).

"The IDF holds phosphorus munitions in different forms," Edery said. "The IDF made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground."

Edery also pointed out that international law does not forbid the use of phosphorus and that "the IDF used this type of munitions according to the rules of international law."

Edery did not specify where and against what types of targets phosphorus munitions were used. During the war several foreign media outlets reported that Lebanese civilians carried injuries characteristic of attacks with phosphorus, a substance that burns when it comes to contact with air. In one CNN report, a casualty with serious burns was seen lying in a South Lebanon hospital.

In another case, Dr. Hussein Hamud al-Shel, who works at Dar al-Amal hospital in Ba'albek, said that he had received three corpses "entirely shriveled with black-green skin," a phenomenon characteristic of phosphorus injuries.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-a...banon-1.203078

Don't worry guys, we only used them against soldiers, not civilians. Take our word for it.

Also, it's not against international law, because we don't recognize the international law that it violates.

Isn't that convenient?

[Azure]

I don't think blankall denied it. He just said they were used in the last Gaza invasion as well and that it is routinely used to help the troops see what was going on.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think blankall denied it. He just said they were used in the last Gaza invasion as well and that it is routinely used to help the troops see what was going on.

Which sounds like a load of bull#### when israeli defense minister says they used them, and continue to use them, as artillery shells.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Weird. I must have been imagining it.

Oh wait, an admission!


http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-a...banon-1.203078

Don't worry guys, we only used them against soldiers, not civilians. Take our word for it.

Also, it's not against international law, because we don't recognize the international law that it violates.

Isn't that convenient?

Israel has at no point denied using white phosphorous. Notice how he also says he used them in open ground and in accordance with the rules of war. It's a totally legal weapon to use as long as you are not using for the purpose of actually doing harm or recklessly.

Do you want to know who else uses white phosphorous.....Canada. In Afghanistan. Everyone uses it and it's a common tool of war.

The fact of the matter is that most tools of war are very very nasty. Getting hit with an anti-tank round probably isn't great for your health either.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Which sounds like a load of bull#### when israeli defense minister says they used them, and continue to use them, as artillery shells.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. Just pointing out that you misread what blankall said.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by blankall

Israel has at no point denied using white phosphorous. Notice how he also says he used them in open ground and in accordance with the rules of war. It's a totally legal weapon to use as long as you are not using for the purpose of actually doing harm or recklessly.

Do you want to know who else uses white phosphorous.....Canada. In Afghanistan. Everyone uses it and it's a common tool of war.

The fact of the matter is that most tools of war are very very nasty. Getting hit with an anti-tank round probably isn't great for your health either.

Keep shoveling the horse####, my friend

Israeli military spokesmen deny that their forces have used phosphorus in Gaza, despite photographs and film of munitions showing similar characteristics to the potentially lethal shells.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...tine-munitions

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. Just pointing out that you misread what blankall said.

I think you should re-read it.

ac·tu·al·ly adverb \ˈak-ch(ə-w)ə-lē, -sh(ə-w)ə-lē; ˈaksh-lē, ˈaks-\
—used to refer to what is true or real

—used to stress that a statement is true especially when it differs in some way from what might have been thought or expected

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Which sounds like a load of bull#### when israeli defense minister says they used them, and continue to use them, as artillery shells.

It also says:

"the IDF used this type of munitions according to the rules of international law."

There are different rules for weapon use in urban settings. I should have clarified that. In an urban situation you can use them for the purpose of lighting but not for other purposes.

In open warfare, it's game on. How is a soldier getting hit by white phosphorous any different than a soldier getting hit by a regular shell, a high powered bullet, or napalm? Warfare sucks. It's not a tickle fight.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Keep shoveling the horse####, my friend


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-palestine-munitions

That article is BS.

It says:

The Israelis have not said what kind of munitions they have been using, other than saying that their use is permitted under international law.

Like I said before, white phosphorous use is legal in urban settings as long as it's not for the purpose of lighting fires. Israel was firing the white phosphorous in contained canisters. Once again, it's a common and effective tool of war.

Canada also admits to using it.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by blankall

It also says:

"the IDF used this type of munitions according to the rules of international law."

There are different rules for weapon use in urban settings. I should have clarified that. In an urban situation you can use them for the purpose of lighting but not for other purposes.

In open warfare, it's game on. How is a soldier getting hit by white phosphorous any different than a soldier getting hit by a regular shell, a high powered bullet, or napalm? Warfare sucks. It's not a tickle fight.

Gee, the defense minister didn't indict himself for war crimes. I guess we should just take his word on it.

Jesus, is this what passes for logic?

Here's the relevant part of the article. Hint: It's not the fluff quote from the guy being questioned about war crimes.

The International Red Cross is of the opinion that there should be a complete ban on phosphorus being used against human beings and the third protocol of the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons restricts the use of "incendiary weapons," with phosphorus considered to be one such weapon.

Israel and the United States are not signatories to the Third Protocol.

So, it's not a war crime because Israel doesn't recognize the law. Convenient. Like using cluster bombs.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Keep shoveling the horse####, my friend


http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...tine-munitions

So if Israel uses white phosphorous, which I assume is something Israel typically does not confirm nor deny, what about the rockets Hamas fires? This is the entire issue at hand. No rockets, no white phosphorous. I don't even have to mention launching rockets from schools and hospitals. The IDF and other military do not play games.

Just to be clear:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-P...In-Gaza-325529

The rockets are doing absolutely nothing good for the Palestinians, zilch.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

So if Israel uses white phosphorous, which I assume is something Israel typically does not confirm nor deny, what about the rockets Hamas fires? This is the entire issue at hand. No rockets, no white phosphorous. I don't even have to mention launching rockets from schools and hospitals. The IDF and other military do not play games.

Just to be clear:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-P...In-Gaza-325529

The rockets are doing absolutely nothing good for the Palestinians, zilch.

What kind of twisted logic is that?

Firing fairly harmless rockets excuses war crimes being committed against you?