Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Tinordi]

U.S. distancing itself from Israel. If you are a relatively disappasioned observer it is becoming exceedingly difficult to ignore the assymetrical role Israel has adopted since the Obama presidency in subverting peace talks and lurching toward a neo-con oppressor state. This whole article is well worth a read, from the notoriously left-leaning (roll eyes) Foreign Policy:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...gin_redirect=0

U.S. diplomats believe the Israeli-Palestinian status quo is ultimately not sustainable. Support for Israel -- as it becomes more isolated, delegitimized, and resolved to maintain the occupation -- could, in time, boomerang against the United States as Washington is put in the unenviable position of defending increasingly indefensible Israeli behavior. Already, Obama has hinted that the United States will no longer be able to carry diplomatic water for Israel the same way that it has in the past.

The current Israeli government does not feel the same sense of urgency.

This divergence was evident in the U.S. response to the breakdown in negotiations. Much of the public focus has been on Kerry's use of the word "apartheid" to describe where Israel may be headed. Strikingly, after his off-the-record comments were leaked, he refused to take them back. While noting that he should have used a different word, Kerry stuck to the view that Israel is facing a dark, undemocratic future.

Then there was the bombshell interview given by anonymous State Department officials (one of whom is generally assumed to be Indyk), published by Yedioth Ahronoth columnist Nahum Barnea. They placed most of the blame for the talks' failure on Israel, and they were not shy in saying why: "People in Israel shouldn't ignore the bitter truth -- the primary sabotage came from the settlements."

It's more than words, however. In June, the U.S. government recognized the newly created Palestinian unity government, which controversially includes members of Hamas. The move caught Israelis off guard, but of an even greater salience, it failed to spark much of an outcry in the United States. The once unthinkable has increasingly become the norm.

Still, what we're seeing is more a gradual decline in the U.S.-Israel relationship than a dramatic turning point. Israel will likely find itself under international pressure from emboldened Palestinian diplomacy and European sanctions, and, according to Alan Elsner, the vice president for communications at J Street, the pro-peace U.S. lobbying group, there may be less willingness by Washington to push back on these moves. But the gestation period should be measured in years, not months. "This erosion would probably play out over a very long period of time," says Eisner. "And much of it would depend on which administration comes into power in 2017."

But even on the politics of Israel, the ground is shifting. Support for Israel was once one of the few issues on which both Democrats and Republicans could agree. Yet in recent years Republicans have tried to make Israel a partisan issue (with often ample backing from Netanyahu). The failure last fall of the Iran sanctions bill was emblematic. The debate in Congress was cast along party lines, with Republicans seeking to undercut one of Obama's key foreign-policy initiatives and Democrats choosing to side with their president.

For Republicans, unquestioning backing for the Jewish state is a reflection of the strong support among conservative American evangelical Christians for Israel -- rather than a political move to steal away votes from American Jews, who continue to uniformly sway Democratic. But even among American Jews, new cracks are visible. Support for Israel's policies vis-à-vis the Palestinians is exceedingly low; fewer than half of American Jews see Israel as sincere in its desire to make peace. Among younger, secular Jews, support for Israel as an essential element of their Jewish identity is far less than that among older and religious Jews. It's a reflection of the growing and pervasive generational divide in the community.

No longer can it be said with certainty that a candidate's support for Israel is a litmus test for Democratic voters the way it might have been 20 years ago. As Israel becomes more nationalistic, more religious, and more defensive in its attitudes toward the occupation, it is hard to see an increasingly secular, liberal, American Jewish community responding with unqualified backing. And for national Democrats, the need to be seen as a steadfast ally of Israel may no longer be so politically important. If the Obama administration -- as well as a potentially subsequent Democratic administration -- truly intends to pivot to Asia and reduce the U.S. footprint in the Middle East, it will no longer want to be bogged down in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is particularly so as the actions of Israel, in regard to the occupation, become far more difficult to defend -- and Israeli leaders increasingly identify themselves with the Republican Party. When one combines the changing politics of support for Israel with Israel's continued obstinacy on ending the occupation, it's hard to imagine a scenario in which the U.S.-Israel relationship doesn't change.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

U.S. distancing itself from Israel. If you are a relatively disappasioned observer it is becoming exceedingly difficult to ignore the assymetrical role Israel has adopted since the Obama presidency in subverting peace talks and lurching toward a neo-con oppressor state. This whole article is well worth a read, from the notoriously left-leaning (roll eyes) Foreign Policy:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...gin_redirect=0

Except not:

http://www.dw.de/us-weighs-in-on-isr...aza/a-17768519

"We strongly condemn the continuing rocket fire into Israel and the deliberate targeting of civilians by terrorist organizations in Gaza," Earnest said on Tuesday. "No country can accept rocket fire aimed at civilians, and we support Israel's right to defend itself against these vicious attacks," Earnest added.

Seems pretty clear where the US stands on this latest round of attacks.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Ah yes, here's some Negev desert. Trade you for Jerusalem.

In my opinion, as stated above, the Israelis have already chosen their "defensible borders". And that's all of it. So now what?

Actually the plans would involve trading Arab civilian centres in the North...but nice try.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

All shades of grey, Israeli terrorists thugging innocent Palestinians and Israeli peace sympathists:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world...as_waited.html

It's a deep seeded ethnic/religious conflict. There are going to be extremist on both sides.

Did those settlers launch thousands of rockets at the Palestinians?

[Tinordi]

You're dodging the points I'm making. Tit for tat spats are a tactic to status quo adhesion for expansionist Israel apologists.

Do you think Israel is provoking conflicts and seeking to undermine peace in the region? The giant balance of evidence suggests so. What is the end game for Israel here? An apartheid state?

[Tinordi]

Do you think that Israeli political leaders should be publicly cudgeling an narrative of "revenge?" Do you think that will make this situation better? Or does it further what appears to be an institutionalization of coercion by an increasingly belligerent and paranoid right wing Israeli extremists?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You're dodging the points I'm making. Tit for tat spats are a tactic to status quo adhesion for expansionist Israel apologists.

Do you think Israel is provoking conflicts and seeking to undermine peace in the region? The giant balance of evidence suggests so. What is the end game for Israel here? An apartheid state?

The Israeli government? No, I do not. I do think however that they are responding to the rocket attacks that are now reaching Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Do Jewish extremists try and provoke? Sure, but I think Hamas wins the prize in that category.

As long as Hamas has a presence in the Palestinian Territories and vows to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, Israel will exist as is. How can anyone expect Israel to relax anything when you have a well funded terrorist group targeting your civilian population?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

All shades of grey, Israeli terrorists thugging innocent Palestinians and Israeli peace sympathists:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world...as_waited.html

Remove this hate speech from your racist news source immediately!

[WCW Nitro]

Israel's greatest asset in the region is Hamas. Israel knows that those rockets can do little damage to it, but it provides a great talking point for Israel. What Israel really fears is a peaceful gov't like the one in the West Bank. Just look at how panicked Israel gets when that government tries to present the Palestinian case internationally. Threats of withholding money, building more settlements,etc should the Palestinians try and join any international body.

[Chill Cosby]

Innocent women and children dying.
Israel's response?
"Worth it!"

https://news.vice.com/article/israel...rce=vicenewsfb

[Nage Waza]

I agree with that Nitro, that is for sure. As long as Hamas is being Hamas, Israel legitimately get's to keep the status quo.

However, if Hamas disappeared I think Israel would adapt to the situation and respond accordingly (I think it would take a while due to clear issues with trust).

I don't blame the Israeli government for those current actions simply due to Hamas.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Innocent women and children dying.
Israel's response?
"Worth it!"

https://news.vice.com/article/israel...rce=vicenewsfb

I think you forgot to mention that Israel is attempting to stop 100's of rockets being fired by the elected government in Gaza, Hamas. They are firing rockets from civilian population centres. Israeli military and government have repeated the offer - stop firing rockets and the IDF will stand down.

It took 100's of rockets before Israel began responding.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I think you forgot to mention that Israel is attempting to stop 100's of rockets being fired by the elected government in Gaza, Hamas. They are firing rockets from civilian population centres. Israeli military and government have repeated the offer - stop firing rockets and the IDF will stand down.



It took 100's of rockets before Israel began responding.

I didn't forget to mention anything, it's in the article.

Problem is, those "100's" of rockets (100's meaning 160-180, so not a multiple of 100) compare in the following way:

Hamas Rocket Attacks:
Deaths - 0
Injuries - 0

Israeli Bombing in Gaza:
Deaths - 50+
Injuries - 450+
(both numbers including civilians)

I'm not posting this as a statement for one side or another. I'm not stating who is right, or who is wrong, I'm simply stating the numbers as they are.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

I didn't forget to mention anything, it's in the article.

Problem is, those "100's" of rockets (100's meaning 160-180, so not a multiple of 100) compare in the following way:

Hamas Rocket Attacks:
Deaths - 0
Injuries - 0

Israeli Bombing in Gaza:
Deaths - 50+
Injuries - 450+
(both numbers including civilians)

I'm not posting this as a statement for one side or another. I'm not stating who is right, or who is wrong, I'm simply stating the numbers as they are.

There have been hundreds of rockets fired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2014

No, you intentionally leave things out. There are less Israeli deaths because they build shelters and other defenses to keep their people safe. Hamas shoots from areas with lots of innocent Palestinians effectively using them as human shields. In fact, there have been instances where when Palestinians have tried to stop their homes from being used as a rocket firing site, they were shot. If Hamas had access to more accurate rockets, there would be more injuries, but Israel does their best to deny those weapons.

If Hamas rockets are so ineffective, why do they keep shooting them?

Here is a breakdown of rocket attacks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...acks_on_Israel

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

There have been hundreds of rockets fired.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2014



No, you intentionally leave things out. There are less Israeli deaths because they build shelters and other defenses to keep their people safe. Hamas shoots from areas with lots of innocent Palestinians effectively using them as human shields. In fact, there have been instances where when Palestinians have tried to stop their homes from being used as a rocket firing site, they were shot. If Hamas had access to more accurate rockets, there would be more injuries, but Israel does their best to deny those weapons.



If Hamas rockets are so ineffective, why do they keep shooting them?



Here is a breakdown of rocket attacks:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...acks_on_Israel

*sigh* There you go again accusing people of purposely leaving something out to suit an agenda.

You'll notice my statistics include only two things: The most recent Hamas rocket assault, and "Operation Protective Edge" which began in response to the most recent Hamas rocket assault. I ignored previous Hamas attacks, true, I ALSO ignored previous Israeli offensives.

Please, seek to understand others instead of being instantly accusatory and rude. That's all I ask.

You can say all you'd like that Hamas isn't killing anybody because of how effective Israeli defence is or how ineffective the Hamas attack is, but all that matters is this:

Israel is actively killing civilians, is aware of it, and instead of seeking to avoid it they are increasing the strength of the offensive.

You asked earlier for both sides to be looked at evenly. Why does Israel get to kill civilians without remorse, while we condemn Hamas for the very same? Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a "bastion of right." Why should Israel be allowed to kill civilians without hesitation while you condemn Hamas for the very same?

Why is one innocent life worth more than another?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

*sigh* There you go again accusing people of purposely leaving something out to suit an agenda.

You attempted to compare Hamas rockets vs IDF responses via death counts. You left out the fact Hamas is attacking from their population centre. If Israel defends itself from rockets there will certainly be collateral damage. If Hamas desired to 'defend' their civilians, they would not fire from the roof of a school or the roof of an unwilling family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You'll notice my statistics include only two things: The most recent Hamas rocket assault, and "Operation Protective Edge" which began in response to the most recent Hamas rocket assault. I ignored previous Hamas attacks, true, I ALSO ignored previous Israeli offensives.

If you would include the amount of rockets fired let's say over the past year and IDF responses that would be interesting.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Please, seek to understand others instead of being instantly accusatory and rude. That's all I ask.

Trust me, I understand.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You can say all you'd like that Hamas isn't killing anybody because of how effective Israeli defence is or how ineffective the Hamas attack is, but all that matters is this:

Hamas clearly has a goal: Drag the IDF into a fight so that Palestinians are killed. IDF's goal is to stop rocket attacks. Seems like a strange battle to me.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Israel is actively killing civilians, is aware of it, and instead of seeking to avoid it they are increasing the strength of the offensive.

And your suggestion would be what? Gaza has problems that stem from Hamas. Israel is avoiding marching soldiers and putting them at risk. If the killing of civilians is your issue, I would imagine you would be complaining about the goals of Hamas.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You asked earlier for both sides to be looked at evenly. Why does Israel get to kill civilians without remorse, while we condemn Hamas for the very same? Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a "bastion of right." Why should Israel be allowed to kill civilians without hesitation while you condemn Hamas for the very same?

I am. Hamas is a terrorist organization and they are the reason Israeli soldiers are firing at rocket sites and operatives. Israel does not kill civilians without hesitation - they sat back while hundreds of rockets were fired. I didn't see much outcry globally or on this website.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Why is one innocent life worth more than another?

I don't disagree. It is terrible.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

I didn't forget to mention anything, it's in the article.

Problem is, those "100's" of rockets (100's meaning 160-180, so not a multiple of 100) compare in the following way:

Hamas Rocket Attacks:
Deaths - 0
Injuries - 0

Israeli Bombing in Gaza:
Deaths - 50+
Injuries - 450+
(both numbers including civilians)

I'm not posting this as a statement for one side or another. I'm not stating who is right, or who is wrong, I'm simply stating the numbers as they are.

Except that you actually are posting those numbers to prove which side is in the wrong.

You're basically saying:

Post 1: I think Israel is in the wrong.
Post 2: I'm not relating these figures to my previous statements...but I'm just going to leave them here in this thread...but don't worry I'm not using them to support my previous statements, which I still stand by.

We all know that the Palestinians take more casualties. With the measures Israel has taken, the rockets are not very effective. It doesn't matter. Israel has a duty to protect its citizens and stop the rocket fire. The bottom portion of the country is in lock down and the rockets are now capable of reaching Tel Aviv, Israel's largest city, and their airport. No country in the world would stand for that.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You attempted to compare Hamas rockets vs IDF responses via death counts. You left out the fact Hamas is attacking from their population centre. If Israel defends itself from rockets there will certainly be collateral damage. If Hamas desired to 'defend' their civilians, they would not fire from the roof of a school or the roof of an unwilling family.



If you would include the amount of rockets fired let's say over the past year and IDF responses that would interesting.

And your suggestion would be what? Gaza has problems that stem from Hamas. Israel is avoiding marching soldiers and putting them at risk. If the killing of civilians is your issue, I would imagine you would be complaining about the goals of Hamas.



I am. Hamas is a terrorist organization and they are the reason Israeli soldiers are firing at rocket sites and operatives. Israel does not kill civilians without hesitation - they sat back while hundreds of rockets were fired. I didn't see much outcry globally or on this site.

I'm not making suggestions. I just posted a factual news article without bias, as information for anyone who wanted to read it. Your motive is clearly to highlight one side of the dispute, I, however, have no motive other than providing information I find interesting. You attack anyone that says anything that may cast a negative light on Israel, that's unfortunately all you do.

Again, I present these facts without bias, and I present them without intention towards one side or the other. I do not defend either side. They are simply numbers, take them as you will:

Fact:
The Second Infitada lasted from 2000-05 and was the result of Palestinian demonstrations that were met with Force by Israeli police.

Death toll from SI:
Israeli - 1503 (719 civilians)
Palestinian - 4789 (2204-3000 civilians)

Fact:
In the Gaza War, (started by rocket attacks from Palestinian forces) Israel created a ceasefire through sheer military strength.

Death toll from the Gaza War (08/09):
Israeli - 13 (4 confirmed as friendly fire plus 500+ injured)
Palestinian - 1166-1400+ (5000+ injured)

Fact:
Operation Pilar of Defence (2012) was yet another "official" conflict between the two. The conflict was started a 24 hour 100+ rocket assault by Palestinian militants (which was caused by the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, among other things). Both sides claimed victory.

Death toll from OPD:
Israeli - 2 soldiers (20 injured), 4 civilians (219 injured)
Palestinian - 55-120 soldiers (29+ injured), 57-105 civilians (900+ injured)

Fact:
Israel has killed more Palestinians in every year of combat between the two. Not only that, but Israel has specifically killed more Palestinian civilians and children by an almost astronomical percentage.

Deaths since 1987 (from opposing force):
Israeli - 1500+ (140+ children)
Palestinian - 8000+ (1500+ children in just the last 14 years)


While these numbers may be from Hamas "hiding behind" their civilians as suggested, make no mistake, Israel is killing extreme numbers of civilians and children. I am not military personnel, but I would suggest they find alternate solutions instead of being comfortable with the massacre of 1000's of innocent men, women, and children. They are not a terrorist organization, so they need to begin acting like it and seeking ways to save innocent people rather than killing them. I would buy your defence of their actions, if they hadn't been killing significantly higher numbers of civilians for decades on end.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

Except that you actually are posting those numbers to prove which side is in the wrong.

You're basically saying:

Post 1: I think Israel is in the wrong.
Post 2: I'm not relating these figures to my previous statements...but I'm just going to leave them here in this thread...but don't worry I'm not using them to support my previous statements, which I still stand by.

Have you read my previous statements?
I firmly believe BOTH are wrong, BOTH are terrible, and BOTH have a long way to go.

I take issue with one thing in a major way: The death and endangerment of civilian men, women, and children.

Because of this, I believe Hamas needs to be eradicated. I also believe that Israel cannot continue their military attacks in the way that they are. They are careless and border on the line of terrorism in themselves.

You do not respond to terrorists by killing civilians, especially children. Ever. It's disgusting. Whether by accident or on purpose, a civilian death is the same, it is weighed the same no matter it's reason. You do not - under any circumstances - kill civilians. If it is by accident, so be it, but 1000's of civilians is no price to pay to stop terrorism.

When you've killed more innocent people than the terrorists, don't you think it's time to re-strategise? Who is truly terrorising who? Because it's looking awfully mutual to me.

[CaptainCrunch]

Chill I get what your saying, but you need to add one other factor to your calculations. The Hamas terror arm shields themselves among the civilians. They fire rockets from schools and hospitals and other densely populated areas. Hamas is a death cult, they see the death of their own citizens as a positive propaganda weapon so they encourage it.

I agree Israel needs to find another way, when they attempted to target senior leadership through the use of their special forces and selected targeting they got a whole lot of negativity from it.

Right now Israel from a defense standpoint can't really back off because Hamas has always used these periods to re-arm and improve their rockets.

As a side note, you can talk about the lower Israeli casualties and rightfully so, but its not from a lack of trying by the extremist groups, I mean at one point a few days ago I read that they fired over 80 rockets into Israel in an hour, its more fortune, and Israel's citizens being well drilled in terms of getting to shelters then its Hamas not trying to kill people enmasse.

Both sides are at fault absolutely, but the biggest issue right now in any peace plan has to be the security of Israel and the only way that happens is if terror groups like Hamas are taken out of the picture.