[Signing] Flames re-sign Paul Byron (1 yr)

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Holy frikkin' crap you guys......

Was Oling_Roachinen just trolling me? What the hell just happened... I feel violated.

Apologies for contributing to another clusterfata of a conversation.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...&postcount=270



If sureLoss isn't a concrete source then I don't know what more we can possibly do to ease your concerns.

That's the generic "we don't want to go to arbitration" we'll hear about every player from every GM. We've heard it about Colborne too.

Treliving never once confirmed that they didn't qualify Byron because of arbitration, at least if that's the interview I heard. Big difference.

Meh, no one has shown a case of a fringe NHL player who played half a season getting over a million dollars in arbitration. Until someone does, I'm not convinced that Byron would be getting some of the million dollar + contract that multiple posters have suggested.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Was Oling_Roachinen just trolling me? What the hell just happened... I feel violated.

Apologies for contributing to another clusterfata of a conversation.

It's a discussion. I haven't insulted everyone and I've presented my arguments.

People are talking like it's fact that Byron wasn't qualified because they feared the massive overpayment he could get in arbitration. I've asked multiple times for people to post some evidence of these overpayments fringe NHL players have received. Nobody has and the best they'll probably be able to do is Kennedy after playing a full season and even he didn't get over a million. Byron still hasn't played a full season.

Arbitration is a factor, it was also a factor in qualifying Colborne, the difference was in one side they qualified the player as they saw him as a potential future player worth the risk and in the other they didn't and were willing to risk losing him for nothing while going after UFAs.

[Coach]

But if you like the contract, and like the player, and are happy they remain with the Flames, who gives a flying fata why they waited a few more days than you thought necessary? Do you not think it's fair to say that the Flames brass had all possible information acted in their best interest in relation to Byron (and all player transactions/signings)?

Of course everyone wants to avoid arbitration. And they did so by not giving him a QO, and therefore, not allowing him to go to arbitration. Whether or not they were going after someone else is completely irrelevant as any player they were looking to sign would not have been hindered by Byron's status one or the other. The Flames have oodles of cap space and plenty of room for contracts, so to say the were holding off on signing him to see if something else came through first would be a very odd mindset for the Flames to have.

The salary possibly awarded in arbitration also doesn't matter. You're looking for evidence of fringe NHLers getting big deals, but it's also beside the point. Teams want to avoid arbitration because its a painful process. They basically sit in a room and scathe the player from all angles. I'm sure they weren't worried about his dollar figure.

[FlamesAddiction]

I personally think that they were less afraid of what Byron's award in arbitration would be than they were of simply going through the process and needing to destroy his confidence and their relationship (as often happens). It was a calculated risk to let him go UFA and then let the market dictate the terms and it paid off.

I doubt he would have gotten much more than that in arbitration, but the Flames didn't want to drag him through the mud in order to make sure either.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

It's a discussion. I haven't insulted everyone and I've presented my arguments.

People are talking like it's fact that Byron wasn't qualified because they feared the massive overpayment he could get in arbitration. I've asked multiple times for people to post some evidence of these overpayments fringe NHL players have received. Nobody has.

Arbitration is a factor, it was also a factor in qualifying Colborne, the difference was in one side they qualified the player as they saw him as a potential future player worth the risk and in the other they didn't and were willing to risk losing him for nothing while going after UFAs.

I appreciate that you haven't insulted anyone nor have you used an offensive tone. I just do not understand why this situation has become like the Moon Landing or the 9-11-was-an-inside-job conspiracies to you. I'm sorry, but I trust sureLoss's immediate summary of the interview more than your vague recollection of it. Here is what he posted again, just in case you missed/ignored/didn't bother reading it:

Treliving on the Fan 960 says the Flames still have interest in Byron.

Confirms that the Flames did not want to go to arbitration with Byron, because he had a strong arbitration case if he was qualified.

Flames have an offer on the table for Byron.

Fact 1: our General Manager confirmed in his interview, regarding Byron and the other RFAs specifically, that they wanted to avoid arbitration because he had a strong case.

Fact 2: in the same interview Treliving stated they still had an interest in Byron and had tabled an offer for him.

Fact 3: within 48 hours of that interview Paul Byron was signed to his new deal.

It is as likely as anything that Treliving spoke to Byron before the qualifying offer deadline to explain that, though he wouldn't be qualified they would be willing to offer him a 1-way deal at a slightly lower NHL salary. That is a very strong offer for someone in Byron's weak position, as you're happy to acknowledge.

There really isn't anything more to see here, Oling. We have the smoking gun. We have the confession. We have the motive. Case frikkin closed dude.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

People are talking like it's fact that Byron wasn't qualified because they feared the massive overpayment he could get in arbitration.

I only spoke up originally because you were talking like it was a fact the Flames only kept Byron because they didn't get the UFA's they wanted..

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Fact 1: our General Manager confirmed in his interview, regarding Byron and the other RFAs specifically, that they wanted to avoid arbitration because he had a strong case.

No general manager wants to go to arbitration. He doesn't want to with Colborne either but he didn't avoid that risk. Why would Treliving insult Byron by saying he didn't have a strong case? He probably did have a strong case, doesn't mean the Flames didn't either.

Fact 2: in the same interview Treliving stated they still had an interest in Byron and had tabled an offer for him.

Did they say when? Several days of talking with UFAs and letting Byron walk. Doesn't really say anything with regards to arbitration and Byron. Doesn't really change my opinion since they still risked Byron leaving as a UFA, pure and simple that's not something you let happen to players you plan on keeping around at all costs.

It is as likely as anything that Treliving spoke to Byron before the qualifying offer deadline to explain that, though he wouldn't be qualified they would be willing to offer him a 1-way deal at a slightly lower NHL salary. That is a very strong offer for someone in Byron's weak position, as you're happy to acknowledge.

My main argument has been the Flames were not afraid of the money Byron would get through arbitration, something that has been cited multiple times in why he wasn't qualifed. Multiple posters have stated that Byron would easily receive over a million. Historically that hasn't been the case. Of the probable hundreds of fringe NHL players eligible for arbitration there isn't many (any?) cases of a fringe NHL player yet to play a full season actually reaching it and receiving a large pay out. They sign before because arbitration is just as risky to them. We can keep going around in circles, but all I'm asking for is evidence contrary to this.

[Chill Cosby]

This might be the longest Internet argument I've ever read without really knowing what the argument is about by the end of it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Did they say when? Several days of talking with UFAs and letting Byron walk. Doesn't really say anything with regards to arbitration and Byron. Doesn't really change my opinion since they still risked Byron leaving as a UFA, pure and simple that's not something you let happen to players you plan on keeping around at all costs.

who says they were looking to keep him at all costs. Letting him go to UFA obviously shows they were willing to risk him jumping ship to another team. I don't think the Flames would have considered it an organizational blow to lose Byron, that doesn't mean they don't value him as a player or didn't want him back. They didn't want to tear him down in an arbitration hearing.

My main argument has been the Flames were not afraid of the money Byron would get through arbitration, something that has been cited multiple times in why he wasn't qualifed. Multiple posters have stated that Byron would easily receive over a million. Historically that hasn't been the case. Of the probable hundreds of fringe NHL players eligible for arbitration there isn't many (any?) cases of a fringe NHL player yet to play a full season actually reaching it and receiving a large pay out. They sign before because arbitration is just as risky to them.

Both sides got what they wanted through the process they took. I do remember hearing Treliving on the radio that they had spoken with his rep beforehand about the situation. Seems like both parties had all their ducks ina row and were of full understanding of the situation. Everything is fine here.

[calumniate]

Should have gone to arbitration and paid more

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

This might be the longest Internet argument I've ever read without really knowing what the argument is about by the end of it.

Reminds me of two eight-year-olds fighting. "Nu-uh!" "Yu-huh!" "Nu-uh!" "Yu-huh!" "Nu-uh!" "Yu-huh!" "Nu-uh!" "Yu-huh!" "Nu-uh!" "Yu-huh!" "Nu-uh!" "Yu-huh!" "Nu-uh!" "Yu-huh!"

[FlameZilla]

No one stated that he could easily fetch over a million. They just stated that it was within the realms of possibility. Anything can happen in arbitration, especially when there are few notable comparables to go by. Byron might be setting the bar for similar players especially if the arbitrator took a liking to him. The GM himself said they thought Byron had a strong arbitration case. Brad Treliving said this Can't you get this through your skull, or are you just not reading these posts at all? Honestly Oling_Roachinen, I feel sorry for your wife/husband if this is how you carry out a discussion at home.

You want these examples of fringe NHLers getting arbitration awards? We've all looked and cannot find them. How about you find something which supports your argument instead of asking us to find it for you.

Anyhow, I just had a look back at the last 14 pages of this thread and realised that you are trolling us, intentionally or not, by not reading any aspect of what other posters are saying. It's all been laid out on a plate for you in a few dozen different perspectives which you have consistently ignored. I hope you get to the bottom of this great mystery anyway. Good luck.

[Roof-Daddy]

Avoiding arbitration isn't just about the money. It's also about not having to go in and lay out a players weaknesses in front of that player, and the arbitration committee. That kind of thing can seriously strain a relationship between the team and the player, and obviously the Flames wanted to keep Byron and not alienate him.

[calumniate]

Personally I'd love to hear a recording of Burke raking some guy over the coals in an arbitration. Haha. Now that would be entertainment. Calling people David Steckel 0.5 and such

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

...and obviously the Flames wanted to keep Byron and not alienate him.

Ha - not sure why I, and all of the rest of us, keep beating this thing - but here I go again anyway.

If the Flames obviously wanted to keep Byron, they would have qualified him - and not risked losing him to free agency or alienating him by not qualifying. They obviously wanted to keep Colborne - and so they qualified him, at the risk of the arbitration process.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Ha - not sure why I, and all of the rest of us, keep beating this thing - but here I go again anyway.

If the Flames obviously wanted to keep Byron, they would have qualified him - and not risked losing him to free agency or alienating him by not qualifying. They obviously wanted to keep Colborne - and so they qualified him, at the risk of the arbitration process.

Or the Flames were confident that any UFA offers Byron might have received would have not significantly differ enough from the Flames' offer and were willing to risk it to avoid arbitration. They obviously felt that Colborne could potentially have offers that the Flames would have been less excited about matching and thought the risk of arbitration was worth keeping him from FA.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

This might be the longest Internet argument I've ever read without really knowing what the argument is about by the end of it.

I think it's a reflection of how disappointed many of the CP fan base felt about the matter.

The thing that bothered me the most was a new GM, who hadn't really seen Byron's play, and who was probably heavily influenced by Burke's emphasis about getting bigger as a team, was responsible for the decision. It kind of reminded me of the situation when Martin St. Louis was let go after a management change...not that I'm comparing the two players.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think it's a reflection of how disappointed many of the CP fan base felt about the matter.

The thing that bothered me the most was a new GM, who hadn't really seen Byron's play, and who was probably heavily influenced by Burke's emphasis about getting bigger as a team, was responsible for the decision. It kind of reminded me of the situation when Martin St. Louis was let go after a management change...not that I'm comparing the two players.

But he signed him. And stated publiclly that it was fully their intention to sign him after dealing with an advantagous technicality. So why do people have a problem?

[BigFlameDog]

With the amount of still unsigned middle of the pack/bottom of the lineup FA's that are out there, I think there was a 0% chance of Byron signing anywhere quickly...they had time to figure it out, whatever their reasons. They also have other options in previously mentioned UFA's who are larger and as cheap as Byron if size was the only criteria.

Colbourne is a 6'5" winger/centreman who has shown signs of turning the corner...it does not, in fact, take rocket science to figure this stuff out.